Complete nitrogen cycle...(go past nitrate)

[Dj City]

We get our brand new tank set up, fill it with water, add an ammonia source and wait for the cycle to complete.
We test for ammonia. When we get to zero ammonia and high nitrites we continue to wait for the next phase where nitrite turn to nitrate. When that happens... TANK CYCLED!

Well, not quite. The tank is not finished.

I'm talking about a COMPLETE cycle. Ammonia to nitrite to nitrate to nitrogen gas that bubbles OUT the tank.
Cycling to nitrate is 3/4 of the nitrogen cycle.
We are conditioned to think the cycle is complete at nitrate and try to export nitrate through water changes, chaeto or whatever means of nitrate removal. Fish "can live" with nitrate but that is not the end of the nitrogen cycle.
Having the correct media in the correct amount to develop anaerobic bacteria that TURNS NITRATE TO NITROGEN GAS THAT BUBBLES OUT THE TANK is a COMPLETE cycle.

At nitrate, the tank is safe for fish depending on the amount of nitrate. Too much nitrate can still kill fish and coral.
We can get our tanks to process nitrate on their own and COMPLETE the nitrogen cycle.

 

[homer1475]

Nearly impossible without feeding the bacteria(carbon dosing), or having a specific anoxic region for the bacteria to grow(but they still need to be fed), and are no where near as efficient as the other 2 bacteria's we rely on.

 

[Danp123]

Wouldn't the bacteria which feeds on Ammonia start to die off if your tank went weeks with 0 ammonia? That's why I got fish as soon as I hit 0 ppm for Ammonia and just did a large water change to lower levels of nitrates.

 

[Dj City]

If you have the correct amount of media that supports anaerobic bacteria, you should be able to complete the nitrogen cycle.
That is what deep sand bed were used for.
That is what some bio blocks are made for.
That is what sulfur denitrator is made for.
It's all places for anaerobic bacteria to grow.

 

[Dj City]

Wouldn't the bacteria which feeds on Ammonia start to die off if your tank went weeks with 0 ammonia? That's why I got fish as soon as I hit 0 ppm for Ammonia and just did a large water change to lower levels of nitrates.

As long as you have a source of ammonia like fish or food, you will have ammonia but the bacteria convert it to nitrite. Other bacteria convert this nitrite to nitrate then another bacteria convert this nitrate to nitrogen gas that bubbles out and complete the nitrogen cycle.

 

[Danp123]

I know how the nitrogen cycle works but that means you'd have to add more ammonia whilst you wait for the cycle to complete. Otherwise the bacteria would die and you'd have to start again

 

[Dj City]

Nearly impossible without feeding the bacteria(carbon dosing), or having a specific anoxic region for the bacteria to grow(but they still need to be fed), and are no where near as efficient as the other 2 bacteria's we rely on.

Are they really not as efficient? Or do we just not provide enough of what they need to thrive and complete the job.

They seem to do a great job in the ocean. There is no carbon dosing in nature.

I think of we provide the correct media, in correct amounts we can achieve a complete nitrogen cycle.

 

[Dj City]

I know how the nitrogen cycle works but that means you'd have to add more ammonia whilst you wait for the cycle to complete. Otherwise the bacteria would die and you'd have to start again

Once you get to the nitrate phase of cycling, add a fish for ammonia production.
This is why so many people think this is the completed cycle because at this point, it's safe to add fish.
But this is NOT the end of the cycle.

 

[sde1500]

Just about everyone knows this. For newbies it’s useful info sure. But you really should reconsider blindly telling people that their cycle takes 4 more months when you have no clue if they have any of what you listed here.

That is what deep sand bed were used for.
That is what some bio blocks are made for.
That is what sulfur denitrator is made for.

 

[Dj City]

Just about everyone knows this. For newbies it’s useful info sure. But you really should reconsider blindly telling people that their cycle takes 4 more months when you have no clue if they have any of what you listed here.

Honestly, a whole lot of people have no idea the nitrogen cycle is not complete at nitrate. Many people believe once you have no ammonia, no nitrites and only have nitrates, the tank is cycled.
It's not!

You are right in a way. I should not have said the 4 more month thing without knowing what equipment or media they have.
The lights statement is to try to prevent excess algae in that first 4 months while the tank gets more stable. Excess light just feeds the algae and diatoms during this early phase. No lights helps avoid "the uglies" while the bacteria and other micro life forms battle it out. Why give algae a boost over others with providing light? There are no corals in the tank at this time that need light. The fish don't cater about the light but that algae sure does!

Having said that,
We really should strive to get away from the idea that the tank is cycled at the point of nitrate because it's not cycled at that point. It can support life but it is not cycled.

We should be striving to accomplish a complete cycle and should be explaining the whole cycle process. Not telling people the tank is cycled at nitrate when it's not complete yet.

 

[Danp123]

Its much easier to lower nitrates through water changes tbh, anaerobic removal of nitrates into nitrogen gas takes ages. I cycled my tank for 6 weeks and that was long enough for me to wait haha

 

[Dj City]

Its much easier to lower nitrates through water changes tbh, anaerobic removal of nitrates into nitrogen gas takes ages. I cycled my tank for 6 weeks and that was long enough for me to wait haha

I hear ya..
My 110 gallon, my 15 gal nano and 40 gal holding tank all went the same way.
I wound up getting a sulfur denitrator for the 110 gallon.
Worked wonderfully!
For the 15gal nano, I do automatically water changes.

I'm about to start a 180 gallon and I want to have it complete the cycle all the way to nitrogen gas escaping the tank.
I'm trying to plan out the best way to achieve this before I even get started.
So far I've got
4L Seachem Pond Matrix and 8 Maxspect Nano-Tech Bio Blocks.
This will be going into the sump.
I'm also considering adding pumice rock (which is basically what seachem matrix is) and maybe a large amount of Biohome.
I also have a diy algae reactor but would really like the media to do the cycle on is own.

I want the best chance for anaerobic bacteria to grow and complete the nitrogen cycle.

 

[Danp123]

I suppose water changes on a 110 gallon tank would take ages tbf... my tank is only 180 liters so its a little easier for me!

 

[Dj City]

The 110 gal is broken down but I did not do water changes on the 110 gallon.
No water changes will be done on the 180 unless something goes wrong wher I HAVE to change the water.
I only replace the elements that get used like all, call, mag trace and so forth.
As long as the water is moving and oxygenates (not stagnant) and there is nothing like excess nitrate to remove, why change the water?

Start with RO/DI water, good salt, good filtration and there should be no need to change water.
Just top off with RO/DI.

 

[Dj City]

I really hope this thread will turn into a full out discussion on the subject with many people of different experience levels and methodologies participating.

A FULL cycle in our reef tanks...
Hmmmmm....

 

[Calgary007newreefguy]

this was a great read for a newbie like my self.

 

[Drewwood85]

I find the best way to complete the cycle is deep sand beds. I wait till nitrates r all gone before adding fish. Nitrates at low levels r ok for fish but at higher levels can still be toxic. So I wait for all readings to be zero before adding live stock. My reef sand bed is over 3 years old and I’ve never vacuumed it. I just use lots of snails to turn the sand. I do a 15% change every 3-4 months but I don’t really have to my tank stays clean on its own. I just clean the glass and add the trace elements and sit back and enjoy lol

 

[SueAndHerZoo]

Can I bring this thread back to life? I'm in the process of cycling my seahorse tank (72 bowfront with 20 gallon sump) and I guess I'm about halfway there? I add ammonia each night and it goes to zero within 24 hours. Nitrites are still high, and nitrates are very high. So should I just keep adding ammonia each night until the ammonia AND nitrite are showing zero within 24 hours?

And I'm very interested in being able to accomplish a COMPLETE cycle. I have a SSB in the display tank but a DSB in the refugium. What else can I do or add to help convert nitrates into gas?

Thanks in advance.
Sue

 

[Dj City]

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[Aqua Man]

what about live rock? Is the bacteria that inefficient? These bacteria live in low oxygen areas, live rock seems like the perfect place. Deep inside the rock.

Is it a sure thing that a newer setup will have these correct bacteria to convert nitrate to nitrogen?

If a tank/system does not have a DSB, will it always have high nitrate?