Complete nitrogen cycle...(go past nitrate)

[brandon429]

If anyone tried to setup five denitrifying tanks four would not comply and one would be zero but a misread

Nobody can arrange variables consistently to attain the unicorn. I see systems using the denitrifying bricks still register some

Agreed many tanks report zero nitrate, it's hard to earn it consistently. Some are true zero agreed.

Even measuring for zero nitrate to stamp a complete cycle isn't consistent. Its a luxury to attain and many don't want the condition or they'll have to dose stump remover.

 

[Aqua Man]

The inconsistency is interesting. I used to believe that zero nitrates was a myth!
So I drove to the coast and tested the Ocean! Sure enough, Zero nitrate.

Not searching for the Unicorn, looking for understanding. Tested all the shops near me, all tested high nitrates. My tank has high nitrates.
So much to learn, so little time.

 

[sde1500]

what about live rock? Is the bacteria that inefficient? These bacteria live in low oxygen areas, live rock seems like the perfect place. Deep inside the rock.

Is it a sure thing that a newer setup will have these correct bacteria to convert nitrate to nitrogen?

If a tank/system does not have a DSB, will it always have high nitrate?

Not inefficient, insufficient probably. If you don't have a lot of rock, with a lot of deep dark areas for anaerobic bacteria to live, you won't get much nitrate reduction. Now add in that we pack our tanks full of flow, and that makes those areas harder to create within our tank. In a new tank, if you include some areas with much deeper sand, and buried rocks, decent chance you'll have some manner of anaerobic bacteria activity. No guarantee it is enough to overcome all the inputs we have for our tanks.

The inconsistency is interesting. I used to believe that zero nitrates was a myth!
So I drove to the coast and tested the Ocean! Sure enough, Zero nitrate.

Not searching for the Unicorn, looking for understanding. Tested all the shops near me, all tested high nitrates. My tank has high nitrates.
So much to learn, so little time.

Not all areas of the ocean are zero. Plus, thanks to tidal movements, at certain times there can be huge up-swellings of nutrients over the reef. But remember, the ocean is much much larger. It isn't relying on anaerobic bacteria for export, it has great kelp forests, huge reefs, deep canyons etc. We can't match that in our tank and rely on mechanical export or bacteria.

 

[TiredReefer]

We get our brand new tank set up, fill it with water, add an ammonia source and wait for the cycle to complete.
We test for ammonia. When we get to zero ammonia and high nitrites we continue to wait for the next phase where nitrite turn to nitrate. When that happens... TANK CYCLED!

Well, not quite. The tank is not finished.

I'm talking about a COMPLETE cycle. Ammonia to nitrite to nitrate to nitrogen gas that bubbles OUT the tank.
Cycling to nitrate is 3/4 of the nitrogen cycle.
We are conditioned to think the cycle is complete at nitrate and try to export nitrate through water changes, chaeto or whatever means of nitrate removal. Fish "can live" with nitrate but that is not the end of the nitrogen cycle.
Having the correct media in the correct amount to develop anaerobic bacteria that TURNS NITRATE TO NITROGEN GAS THAT BUBBLES OUT THE TANK is a COMPLETE cycle.

At nitrate, the tank is safe for fish depending on the amount of nitrate. Too much nitrate can still kill fish and coral.
We can get our tanks to process nitrate on their own and COMPLETE the nitrogen cycle.

Do you have any further information on best practices for this setup? My tank is almost always at 0 nitrate. I'm certain I must have a healthy anaerobic bacteria population in my sump (I put quite a bit of Sea-chem matrix in the sump.....way more than 'needed' - can you have too much?).
I do not want 0 nitrate. I suppose I can just feed heavier and heavier until I see an increase in nitrates.
What implications does this have for water changes? Larger changes less frequently to replenish trace elements?

 

[ahiggins]

I’m resurrecting a semi-dead thread for a question.
1) is it possible that the denitrifying bacteria can live INside rocks?

I put three dry base rocks into an established tank about 3 months ago when I re-scaped it. Plenty of nice growth on them. My tank sits consistently at 15ppm nitrate and 15-25 ppb phosphate. I’ve noticed bubbles form then release from the dry rocks all the time. Micro bubbles, tiny ones. I have no cyano or dinos in the tank and there’s nothing “attached” to the bubbles so I know it’s not a problem per se. I’m just super curious as to why they form.
My theories are
1) all the bubbles from being dry rock aren’t entirely out of the rock yet (how much longer than 3 months would that take lol)
2) denitrifying bacteria are making nitrogen gas and it slowly dissipates

what do you think? I’ve attached a pic of what the bubbles look like for reference, tiny white specs on the bottom rock.

 

[HuduVudu]

1) is it possible that the denitrifying bacteria can live INside rocks?

Yes, porous live rock was sought out specifically for this reason.

In fact the orginal Berlin method called for this type of live rock to deal with nitrate reduction.

I put three dry base rocks into an established tank about 3 months ago when I re-scaped it. Plenty of nice growth on them. My tank sits consistently at 15ppm nitrate and 15-25 ppb phosphate. I’ve noticed bubbles form then release from the dry rocks all the time. Micro bubbles, tiny ones. I have no cyano or dinos in the tank and there’s nothing “attached” to the bubbles so I know it’s not a problem per se. I’m just super curious as to why they form.

If they were dead, then in all likelyhood they were porous enough to have a lot of trapped air. This can take quite some time to outgas.

what do you think? I’ve attached a pic of what the bubbles look like for reference, tiny white specs on the bottom rock.

That looks like dinos to me.

In balance dinos are a part of the ecosystem. As long as there are competing algaes they won't get out of control.

 

[Rmckoy]

We get our brand new tank set up, fill it with water, add an ammonia source and wait for the cycle to complete.
We test for ammonia. When we get to zero ammonia and high nitrites we continue to wait for the next phase where nitrite turn to nitrate. When that happens... TANK CYCLED!

Well, not quite. The tank is not finished.

I'm talking about a COMPLETE cycle. Ammonia to nitrite to nitrate to nitrogen gas that bubbles OUT the tank.
Cycling to nitrate is 3/4 of the nitrogen cycle.
We are conditioned to think the cycle is complete at nitrate and try to export nitrate through water changes, chaeto or whatever means of nitrate removal. Fish "can live" with nitrate but that is not the end of the nitrogen cycle.
Having the correct media in the correct amount to develop anaerobic bacteria that TURNS NITRATE TO NITROGEN GAS THAT BUBBLES OUT THE TANK is a COMPLETE cycle.

At nitrate, the tank is safe for fish depending on the amount of nitrate. Too much nitrate can still kill fish and coral.
We can get our tanks to process nitrate on their own and COMPLETE the nitrogen cycle.

I’m the old days. .
Deep sand beds were used to create these areas where nitrates were converted to nitrogen gas. .

denitrator reactors using sulphur can do the same .
but … is it required ?

 

[ahiggins]

Yes, porous live rock was sought out specifically for this reason.

In fact the orginal Berlin method called for this type of live rock to deal with nitrate reduction.

If they were dead, then in all likelyhood they were porous enough to have a lot of trapped air. This can take quite some time to outgas.

That looks like dinos to me.

In balance dinos are a part of the ecosystem. As long as there are competing algaes they won't get out of control.

Thanks I know dinos are there because a few years ago when first starting the tank I had a huge problem with them. They aren’t forming up so I think I’m ok. The rock is brs dry so I’m still torn between air bubbles and maybe dinos trying to come back I don’t see them on the established rock so it had me stumped.

 

[HuduVudu]

@ahiggins I have dinos and my tank is very established. The dinos pop up in various areas at various times. They then fade out. It is usually marked by nutrient spikes. I think that what you are seeing are dinos popping up. If your system is balanced then they will die back down. If something however is out of balance then they will start to grow rapidly.

Honestly I think a very large number of people have dinos. When someone "beats" the dinos they fade into obscurity. The dinos are not gone they have simply ceased to be the dominant algae in the tank i.e. there is significant competition that is keeping them at bay. What is not seen is not worried about so people think that they have removed them when in reality they simply minimized them in their aquariums.

 

[srcleary]

I am hoping there is still come interest in this thread. I like the idea of the "full cycle" where the nitrates are converted to nitrogen gas. I am in the process of setting up a 800g FOWLR tank and I am concerned about nitrate loads as I am always fighting nitrates in my current temp tanks. Of course I know this is my doing and from large bio load and feeding too heavy.

I confess I am a newbie so please forgive any of my ignorance. I am trying to learn.

If the principle of aerobic bacteria on the outside surface of the rock (or other bio media) and the anaerobic in the low flow (oxygen starved) areas (in the pores of the rock) is sound, why don't we strive more to recreate this environment in our tanks.

I have set up two sumps. Each has a refugium area. I can divert water from the intake into these sections of the sump and have gate valves to control flow. On one of them I put a flow meter to know exactly how much flow is going through the "refugium".

I filled this refugium section with a deep bed of Pond Matrix. About 10 gallons worth! I will pump the water to the bottom of the refugium and let it flow up through the Matrix. I can adjust the flow to whatever I need but I suspect a rate of 30 - 50 gph should work.

Naturally my theory is that this refugium with the deep Matrix bed will create an environment to grow anaerobic bacteria to convert nitrate to nitrogen without the need of a carbon source (like a bio pellet reactor). It should also be fairly maintenance free. I can remove the Pond Matrix from time to time and rinse if necessary.

In the other sump refugium section I am planning on growing Ulva (sea lettuce) as I feed it to my tangs and angels.

Should my theory of the deep Matrix bed with low flow work? Am I missing something? Other ideas?

Thanks! Steve

 

[Dj City]

I am hoping there is still come interest in this thread. I like the idea of the "full cycle" where the nitrates are converted to nitrogen gas. I am in the process of setting up a 800g FOWLR tank and I am concerned about nitrate loads as I am always fighting nitrates in my current temp tanks. Of course I know this is my doing and from large bio load and feeding too heavy.

I confess I am a newbie so please forgive any of my ignorance. I am trying to learn.

If the principle of aerobic bacteria on the outside surface of the rock (or other bio media) and the anaerobic in the low flow (oxygen starved) areas (in the pores of the rock) is sound, why don't we strive more to recreate this environment in our tanks.

I have set up two sumps. Each has a refugium area. I can divert water from the intake into these sections of the sump and have gate valves to control flow. On one of them I put a flow meter to know exactly how much flow is going through the "refugium".

I filled this refugium section with a deep bed of Pond Matrix. About 10 gallons worth! I will pump the water to the bottom of the refugium and let it flow up through the Matrix. I can adjust the flow to whatever I need but I suspect a rate of 30 - 50 gph should work.

Naturally my theory is that this refugium with the deep Matrix bed will create an environment to grow anaerobic bacteria to convert nitrate to nitrogen without the need of a carbon source (like a bio pellet reactor). It should also be fairly maintenance free. I can remove the Pond Matrix from time to time and rinse if necessary.

In the other sump refugium section I am planning on growing Ulva (sea lettuce) as I feed it to my tangs and angels.

Should my theory of the deep Matrix bed with low flow work? Am I missing something? Other ideas?

Thanks! Steve

This should work but it's going to take quite a while. That's just the way it is. Nothing to do with the method.
The only concern here is the upflow of water.
I would not set it up with water flowing up through the media.
It could defeat the purpose.

 

[srcleary]

This should work but it's going to take quite a while. That's just the way it is. Nothing to do with the method.
The only concern here is the upflow of water.
I would not set it up with water flowing up through the media.
It could defeat the purpose.

I thought the idea of de-nitrate was to create low flow through the media. I have read that the flow doesn't need to be slow if using Pond Matrix (because of the larger size pieces) but it was still my intention to use a lower flow rate.

After reading your posts I also did some more research. I found this one using Matrix. I think it was posted on this forum as well. Have you seen?

Putting Matrix to the test! Now that Marinepure is out!

After Marinepure was confirmed to release Aluminum by Ryan at BRS I decided to put Seachem's Matrix to the test. There's tons of great reviews out there that claim Nitrates dropped in less than a week at times. While I don't think this will be the case I decided to run my own experiment. The tank...

www.nano-reef.com

I am also reading where some feed the media with carbon (vinegar / vodka). But I prefer NOT to do that.

With a lot of fish and heavy feeding I think I will find out soon as my nitrates climb. But yes I have also heard the system takes a while to work. Hopefully the refugium with the Ulva will help offset that.

It would be easy to change the plumbing to NOT have up flow if that would work better. Just trying to understand the science.

Thanks for chiming in.