Confused.........need help!

[Tautog]

Everything seemed to be fine, then I went on vacation.
I'm just in a year, and, I think I've had success. I have a DSB, tons of current, great water quality, a good mixture of fish, snails, and corals. There's ChemiPure Elite in the sump with the Reef Octopus skimmer, and a fuge with Mircle Mud, sand, and cheato.
My confusion concerns the rapid change to high nitrates.
I fed every other day while on vacation to avoid this, but got it any way.
My question is "What to do now!" I haven't dosed anything but phyllo plankton every other day.
30 gal. WC / month. Tank is 180
Ph - 8.2
Ammonia - 0
Nitrites- 0
Nitrates - Scarey high
Temp. 77
I've removed the ChemiPure, and started dosing Nopox, but my No3's increased. Lost a sand sifter, and did a WC. I know with the extra corals, Ca dosing is a must, but I have growth, and tons of coraline algae.
Thanks in advance for your help. Need to get this straight.

 

[brandon429]

I would stick a small siphon hose down in the sandbed off in a corner area, and pull out some gunk and nitrate test it.

should register even higher levels than what you see from the water, highlighting the source of the likely protein stores breaking down into nitrate we measure as it's leaked up to the top water

Any truly working truly balanced sandbed or mud approach must test as low nitrate in its depths in order to not be the worlds most constant source of nitrate problems


My own tank passes this test...six inch deep substrate of Fiji pink sand, but it's kept so clean during water changes its bottom most layer is as clean as the top, all times. Many times in threads I took the reef apart, flipped the sandbed top to bottom, rinsed things, and put back together with zero nutrient spikes. Clean sand is the same as no sand. I know it's vogue to be hands off sandbed, but when it doesn't work nutrients come about.

Nitrate test error, the universal left curve of API, can also never be ruled out.

 

[Diesel]

So what is your No3?
Any effect yet on your corals?

 

[Fin]

Not saying this is your only problem, but one thing you mentioned caught my attention. According to Dr. Ron Shimek in his publication, "Deep Sand Bed Secrets," you should not be using sand sifters (stars, gobies, etc) in a DSB. They spend their day grazing on the beneficial organisms in the sand bed that help the sand bed work.

 

[oodan]

I don't know much but what I do know is the sand bed is normally the place a mix Eco system holds this nitrate it's basically fish dung and it settles down there I stir up my bed and suck a lil out every time I do a water change its all what works for you some will say don't move it let it brake down some will say filter it don't let it build up well I do one lil corner a week with my water change mine has been going for 2 years I have coralite like mad and have never had problems hope it works out bud keep us posted

 

[Tautog]

So what is your No3?
Any effect yet on your corals?

No3's are over 40
Corals don't seem affected, in fact, I've seen a lot of growth lately. Anemonies have closed from time to time.

 

[Tautog]

Not saying this is your only problem, but one thing you mentioned caught my attention. According to Dr. Ron Shimek in his publication, "Deep Sand Bed Secrets," you should not be using sand sifters (stars, gobies, etc) in a DSB. They spend their day grazing on the beneficial organisms in the sand bed that help the sand bed work.

Thanks for that, and every LPS swears by them to clean the sand bed.

 

[Tautog]

I don't know much but what I do know is the sand bed is normally the place a mix Eco system holds this nitrate it's basically fish dung and it settles down there I stir up my bed and suck a lil out every time I do a water change its all what works for you some will say don't move it let it brake down some will say filter it don't let it build up well I do one lil corner a week with my water change mine has been going for 2 years I have coralite like mad and have never had problems hope it works out bud keep us posted

Yep, I figured it was excess poop. With all the stuff running around in a tank, I hoped I didn't have to clean up the poop too. Thanks for the info. I did mix up the sand bed, did a WC, but still had this huge No3 spike.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Don't worry about the nitrate as the nopox will only be helped to eliminate phosphate, because of the excess nitrate.
What's your phosphate levels btw?

 

[Tautog]

I would stick a small siphon hose down in the sandbed off in a corner area, and pull out some gunk and nitrate test it.

should register even higher levels than what you see from the water, highlighting the source of the likely protein stores breaking down into nitrate we measure as it's leaked up to the top water

Any truly working truly balanced sandbed or mud approach must test as low nitrate in its depths in order to not be the worlds most constant source of nitrate problems


My own tank passes this test...six inch deep substrate of Fiji pink sand, but it's kept so clean during water changes its bottom most layer is as clean as the top, all times. Many times in threads I took the reef apart, flipped the sandbed top to bottom, rinsed things, and put back together with zero nutrient spikes. Clean sand is the same as no sand. I know it's vogue to be hands off sandbed, but when it doesn't work nutrients come about.

Nitrate test error, the universal left curve of API, can also never be ruled out.

Thanks for your post, but everyone I asked about cleaning the sand and sump, and they said never to clean them, what gives? I have sps corals, so I guess I have to dose? With all the coraline algae, I never thought I was lacking Ca.

 

[brandon429]

http://reef2reef.com/threads/the-of...ead-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445

five internet posters rarely agree on a course of action, especially sandbeds lol.
all we can do is make big threads to test a claim and look for repeating outcomes (cleanliness, no algae, no recycling or top invaders on sandbed etc)

must choose lol!

that hose test above is a small section test, doesn't disturb whole bed. if your sandbed is working the magic claimed, it will read zero nitrates in its middle mud layer, the layer that exchanges through the sandbed with the top water since sand isn't water tight. if its high nitrates, theres a source for trouble. if its zero, leave it all in place/easy test~

 

[oodan]

The thing is live sand is ment to have bacteria and all kinds of stuff in there now there is always a difference in opinion in any salt or reef setup maintenance or what have you if you have never ever ever touched your bed it more then likely has a deep layer of toxic crap on bottom I'm not a buff and can't give you all the fancy names of this crap but I can tell you it comes from left over food and poop you should not go freeking out and clean it all out at once it will mix with your water boom all bad but what works for me and in my opinion I have been doing this for over 2 years and have loads of soft and hard corals is I take 1 small part of my tank and suck sand with my weekly water change I do every Friday like clock work it keeps me from any thing bad will it work for you ? Don't know it's just what I do from what I have learned it's all diff for diff people there local water is diff becaus of there climate and where there water is driven from how it brakes down this is what I do know is the same and what I do to keep it out also a lot of carbon is good

 

[brandon429]

on a larger tank like the one in question, im all for mini testing first. to truly clean a sandbed is a big big job that must be done in certain order, can't have a hesitant start. very much a full commitment activity lol, needs prep and proof testing before undertaking. see the last entry in my linked thread for the details of that kind of job. most will not do the job, even if the test shows its needed and that's understandable.

your sandbed might not even be the case, just going off the common issues. lets see its details, cross section pics from front of the tank etc

I like to assume a sandbed is misbehaving, and that deep tank surgery is needed, in nearly all cases even before pics heh.

 

[AZDesertRat]

My 100G mixed reef has a 330 lb. Southdown DSB 5-6" deep and it has never been stirred or cleaned in 13 years. When you stir it up you expose the anaerobic and anoxic bacterias to oxygen and kill them. Every 3-6 months I may siphon a very small sectio about 1/4" deep if I see any detritus on top but other than that it has never been disturbed. No sand sifters of burrowers other than nassarius and afew other snails and no digging fish.

 

[Tautog]

So what is your No3?
Any effect yet on your corals?

No3 over 40
Corals seem fine, in fact, mushrooms are reproducing as well as blastos I got 6 weeks ago, and growth on a chalice that added a small wing. There's sponges, and now smoke signals coming from a large base rock. I've removed the ChemiPure from the sump, and dosing 18 ml of Nopox though out the day. Should I be cleaning the sump? Some say yes, others never, what's your opinion?

 

[AZDesertRat]

I shop vac detritus out of my sump at water change times.

 

[Tautog]

My 100G mixed reef has a 330 lb. Southdown DSB 5-6" deep and it has never been stirred or cleaned in 13 years. When you stir it up you expose the anaerobic and anoxic bacterias to oxygen and kill them. Every 3-6 months I may siphon a very small sectio about 1/4" deep if I see any detritus on top but other than that it has never been disturbed. No sand sifters of burrowers other than nassarius and afew other snails and no digging fish.

What about cleaning the sump? I seem to have fine material in sump, and in return section with pump.

 

[Tautog]

I shop vac detritus out of my sump at water change times.

Thanks for that quick reply, faster than I could ask!

 

[brandon429]

since you are dosing the water w carbon (nopox) to compensate for the nitrate leaking theres no requirement to clean the bed, an offset is in place. I certainly wouldn't assume the test reading is right, but averaged between two hq tests if the nitrates still show 40~ and you want them lowered its down to these three options:

-reduce greatly the bioloading in the system
-add more offsets-carbon dosing etc or algae turf scrubbers. they do work for this need.
-remove the waste leaking the nitrate causing the offsets. verifying the test readings is important, threads that show comparative readings among kits are amazing to see, even kits within the expiration date periods. simply user technique and production differences make a true reading out of reach for us, id be curious to know what your real nitrate is.

 

[Tautog]

since you are dosing the water w carbon (nopox) to compensate for the nitrate leaking theres no requirement to clean the bed, an offset is in place. I certainly wouldn't assume the test reading is right, but averaged between two hq tests if the nitrates still show 40~ and you want them lowered its down to these three options:

-reduce greatly the bioloading in the system
-add more offsets-carbon dosing etc or algae turf scrubbers. they do work for this need.
-remove the waste leaking the nitrate causing the offsets. verifying the test readings is important, threads that show comparative readings among kits are amazing to see, even kits within the expiration date periods. simply user technique and production differences make a true reading out of reach for us, id be curious to know what your real nitrate is.

Yep, me too! But it's what I got so I'm dealing with it. I'll be cleaning poop from the sump next, I can't find anything dead anywhere.