Constantly Failing At SPS What Am I Missing?

vetteguy53081 · Mar 17, 2018

I quickly scanned through posts and did not see much mentioned of feeding ( roids, chili, etc good food sources) as was mentioned- pods.
Stability is key. Seems like a lot of water/parameter changes and I too endure this frustration for years and learned to leave all alone and pretend they are growing and eventually they did.

Red Sea POX4 seemed to aid me in nitrate/nitrite control and PH of at least 8.0. SPS will challenge the novice and most experienced hobbyist. Reasearch what you buy Before you buy and always start with the easiest such as birdnest.

drawman · Mar 17, 2018

Just read through this thread and I think you've received some very good advice. Those of us that have kept acros long enough have run into problems and it can be very frustrating when things just don't seem to work. I think it is always best to start out with the most common/likely scenarios. For now, try to avoid the far out there suggestions and don't change everything at once.

High Quality RODI. This is absolutely number one and I'm glad others have hammered this home. I think this is where you need to start with all acro issues. Make sure you regularly change your filters and know what is in your source water. I strongly would recommend a 2 stage DI unit as well. If you have high levels of CO2 in your water this is a must. I would not trust a store to make my water.

Keep things simple and consistent. You have a lot of moving parts in your system running zeo. You would probably do a lot better by not dosing anything other than calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium. You are testing a lot and I think that's a strong attribute that will make you successful.

You can grow acros in new systems. However it is more of a challenge. I have had good success keeping acros in month old systems with dry rock and siporax. However, I utilized a lot of bacteria, kept alkalinity on the lower side (6-8dKH), and kept a fair amount of nutrients in the water (measurable NO3, PO4). Fish poop is your friend in these new systems. Alternatively, good quality live rock makes things a lot easier.

I personally do not agree that virulent bacteria is your problem. I think your alkalinity and nutrient levels should be just fine in a simple system. FWIW, I've never run zeovit and do not plan to.

I don't think it's helpful to throw out too many possibilities at this time but I would also make sure your refractometer is regularly calibrated and check all equipment for rust just to be on the safe side. Good luck!

RMS18 · Mar 17, 2018

vetteguy53081 said:
I quickly scanned through posts and did not see much mentioned of feeding ( roids, chili, etc good food sources) as was mentioned- pods.
Stability is key. Seems like a lot of water/parameter changes and I too endure this frustration for years and learned to leave all alone and pretend they are growing and eventually they did.

Red Sea POX4 seemed to aid me in nitrate/nitrite control and PH of at least 8.0. SPS will challenge the novice and most experienced hobbyist. Reasearch what you buy Before you buy and always start with the easiest such as birdnest.

Well the fish get 1-2 cubes a day.. I rinse the cubes.

Once a week I feed Roids but it's a instant po4 spike so I feed that the day before w/c.

Other than that just the zeo basics... And Pods every two months.

The one thing I did not clarify with everyone and I'm not sure how many will see this but with the new lighting schedule that's reduced... Without the 1 hour ramp before and after light cycle, lights are on for 7 hours... Should be a good starting place..

RMS18 · Mar 17, 2018

drawman said:
Just read through this thread and I think you've received some very good advice. Those of us that have kept acros long enough have run into problems and it can be very frustrating when things just don't seem to work. I think it is always best to start out with the most common/likely scenarios. For now, try to avoid the far out there suggestions and don't change everything at once.

High Quality RODI. This is absolutely number one and I'm glad others have hammered this home. I think this is where you need to start with all acro issues. Make sure you regularly change your filters and know what is in your source water. I strongly would recommend a 2 stage DI unit as well. If you have high levels of CO2 in your water this is a must. I would not trust a store to make my water.

Keep things simple and consistent. You have a lot of moving parts in your system running zeo. You would probably do a lot better by not dosing anything other than calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium. You are testing a lot and I think that's a strong attribute that will make you successful.

You can grow acros in new systems. However it is more of a challenge. I have had good success keeping acros in month old systems with dry rock and siporax. However, I utilized a lot of bacteria, kept alkalinity on the lower side (6-8dKH), and kept a fair amount of nutrients in the water (measurable NO3, PO4). Fish poop is your friend in these new systems. Alternatively, good quality live rock makes things a lot easier.

I personally do not agree that virulent bacteria is your problem. I think your alkalinity and nutrient levels should be just fine in a simple system. FWIW, I've never run zeovit and do not plan to.

I don't think it's helpful to throw out too many possibilities at this time but I would also make sure your refractometer is regularly calibrated and check all equipment for rust just to be on the safe side. Good luck!

Thank you.. my 5 stage BRS unit is on it's way. Looking forward to a big water change. I will check for rust next week when I do some maintenance. I do have all new equipment that is only as old as the system and other than my PH being Jeabo, I have only Sicce, vertex, skimz, and cobolt in the system.

Robert Vacchiano · Mar 17, 2018

For 20 bucks you can get a tds meter.I would buy the Ro water and test it to see if that was the problem

RMS18 · Mar 17, 2018

Robert Vacchiano said:
For 20 bucks you can get a tds meter.I would buy the Ro water and test it to see if that was the problem

I bought one of Amazon.. it's blue doget the name. I tired it once and got a crazy high reading from the rodi water.. then tested my tap water which showed to be lower... At that point I figured it was inaccurate.

But all that questioning will be eliminated once my rodi system comes.

rtparty · Mar 17, 2018

I really think your "problem" is very simple. Too much going on, dry rock and too young.

After almost a year of nothing but problems, dry rock is a total bane to this hobby IMO. I've used it in the past without issue but I always had live rock from previous systems to help seed everything.

I am now figuring out how to get some boat rock in and get it curing properly. Jda gave you the answer earlier in the thread.

I hate to be "that guy" but this hobby was so much easier 10 years ago. We've made it far more complicated over the years and it's sad to see IMO. Strong lighting, strong flow, strong skimming and live rock. Simple.

Second Shot · Mar 17, 2018

FWIW using a tds meter on water from LFS will likely not be 0. The water may very well be zero when it comes out of their rodi but once sitting in their storage container it will start to build tds just from sitting.

jorahx · Mar 17, 2018

Bmwm235i said:
Well the fish get 1-2 cubes a day.. I rinse the cubes.

why do you rinse the cubes?

justingraham · Mar 17, 2018

rtparty said:
I really think your "problem" is very simple. Too much going on, dry rock and too young.

After almost a year of nothing but problems, dry rock is a total bane to this hobby IMO. I've used it in the past without issue but I always had live rock from previous systems to help seed everything.

I am now figuring out how to get some boat rock in and get it curing properly. Jda gave you the answer earlier in the thread.

I hate to be "that guy" but this hobby was so much easier 10 years ago. We've made it far more complicated over the years and it's sad to see IMO. Strong lighting, strong flow, strong skimming and live rock. Simple.

I get ur point but what if BRS ulm tanks (the series they are doing now) has no problems with growing sps?
Those tanks have been started with dry dead rock.

I’m not arguing with u as I beleive there is some truth to the whole starting with dead rock is harder to keep sps but if they have a nice sps tank in 6 months then what? I’m very intrigued to see if brs will find this out or not

rtparty · Mar 17, 2018

justingraham said:
I get ur point but what if BRS ulm tanks (the series they are doing now) has no problems with growing sps?
Those tanks have been started with dry dead rock.

I’m not arguing with u as I beleive there is some truth to the whole starting with dead rock is harder to keep sps but if they have a nice sps tank in 6 months then what? I’m very intrigued to see if brs will find this out or not

I would say they may be the exception and not the rule. They may also "unlock" some key to getting a dry rock truly established quicker than we currently are. Even live rock tanks tend to need some time to fully mature. So I don't think BRS will have a full blown mature SPS tank in 6 months no matter what they do

NY_Caveman · Mar 17, 2018

justingraham said:
I get ur point but what if BRS ulm tanks (the series they are doing now) has no problems with growing sps?
Those tanks have been started with dry dead rock.

I’m not arguing with u as I beleive there is some truth to the whole starting with dead rock is harder to keep sps but if they have a nice sps tank in 6 months then what? I’m very intrigued to see if brs will find this out or not

I had saltwater in the 90s and always used live rock. It seems some folks these days have maturity issues starting with dry rock. I am not saying this is @Bmwm235i 's issue, but something to consider for everyone.

I will note a few things though. A dry rock start up will take longer to mature and will not be as biodiverse. That seems obvious. As far as the BRS ULM tanks, they are dry rock, but they went one month cycling in darkness being seeded with pods and such and running a lit refugium. Then an additional month with only ambient light (if I followed correctly).

That is a large chunk of time to build up bacteria and life without high intensity light that could produce uglies. The coraline introduction in month 2 will help cover the rock and further control nuisance algae (OT, people talk about algae while cycling as if it has to happen. In my experience, algae has nothing to do with cycling, but can occur during this time).

For my new 30 gallon build, I am using about 6 lbs. dry rock and 15-18 lbs. live rock. The dry rock was bleached and cured for about 8 weeks, then I added about 3 lbs of live rock and it currently sitting in the bucket cycling at week 4 since curing. The remainder of the live rock will be purchased and added in about 4-5 weeks when I fill the aquarium. From then I will wait an additional month or two before adding anything more than a CUC and maybe a fish. Like BRS, I understand that time and patience are my best friends while cycling an aquarium.

I am moving very, very slowly to be sure my system is as diverse and strong as possible. In the case of @Bmwm235i his tank looks like he is doing everything correctly in general. Nice hybrid light setup too. It is possible that the system is still maturing, but he is also taking small steps now it seems to remedy some of the variables. Seems like even if his tank needs time to mature, he will definitely get there.

RMS18 · Mar 17, 2018

jorahx said:
why do you rinse the cubes?

The water the shrimp is fozen in is high in nutrients. And that water doesn't feed anything in the tank. Forget where I picked that up, but it made sense..

RMS18 · Mar 17, 2018

justingraham said:
I get ur point but what if BRS ulm tanks (the series they are doing now) has no problems with growing sps?
Those tanks have been started with dry dead rock.

I’m not arguing with u as I beleive there is some truth to the whole starting with dead rock is harder to keep sps but if they have a nice sps tank in 6 months then what? I’m very intrigued to see if brs will find this out or not

Yea it's a 50/50 for me with dry rock. My first lps tank used live rock and I hated it I had so many pests. Second lps tank I used dry rock and it was an awesome tank. Both tanks were great with color and growth. The BRS 160 was started off with dry rock and zeo and that tank took off... I dunno.. so many ways to achieve a goal.

RMS18 · Mar 17, 2018

NY_Caveman said:
I had saltwater in the 90s and always used live rock. It seems some folks these days have maturity issues starting with dry rock. I am not saying this is @Bmwm235i 's issue, but something to consider for everyone.

I will note a few things though. A dry rock start up will take longer to mature and will not be as biodiverse. That seems obvious. As far as the BRS ULM tanks, they are dry rock, but they went one month cycling in darkness being seeded with pods and such and running a lit refugium. Then an additional month with only ambient light (if I followed correctly).

That is a large chunk of time to build up bacteria and life without high intensity light that could produce uglies. The coraline introduction in month 2 will help cover the rock and further control nuisance algae (OT, people talk about algae while cycling as if it has to happen. In my experience, algae has nothing to do with cycling, but can occur during this time).

For my new 30 gallon build, I am using about 6 lbs. dry rock and 15-18 lbs. live rock. The dry rock was bleached and cured for about 8 weeks, then I added about 3 lbs of live rock and it currently sitting in the bucket cycling at week 4 since curing. The remainder of the live rock will be purchased and added in about 4-5 weeks when I fill the aquarium. From then I will wait an additional month or two before adding anything more than a CUC and maybe a fish. Like BRS, I understand that time and patience are my best friends while cycling an aquarium.

I am moving very, very slowly to be sure my system is as diverse and strong as possible. In the case of @Bmwm235i his tank looks like he is doing everything correctly in general. Nice hybrid light setup too. It is possible that the system is still maturing, but he is also taking small steps now it seems to remedy some of the variables. Seems like even if his tank needs time to mature, he will definitely get there.

Thank you for the suports!

rtparty · Mar 17, 2018

Bmwm235i said:
The water the shrimp is fozen in is high in nutrients. And that water doesn't feed anything in the tank. Forget where I picked that up, but it made sense..

The food contains more nutrients than the water. Also, the water and other stuff you're rinsing away feeds other stuff in the tank. I think Randy has an article about all that.

jorahx · Mar 17, 2018

Bmwm235i said:
The water the shrimp is fozen in is high in nutrients. And that water doesn't feed anything in the tank. Forget where I picked that up, but it made sense..

Interesting. So defrost the cubes and strain out just the shrimp? Or how do you do this?

happyhourhero · Mar 17, 2018

Rinsing is a waste of effort imo

RMS18 · Mar 18, 2018

jorahx said:
Interesting. So defrost the cubes and strain out just the shrimp? Or how do you do this?

Yes that's the idea... They sell strainers for this exact purpose.

It's one of those things where some believe and others don't. Some say the feeds others inhabitants, but the rebuttal to that is if you feed a reef Roids or similar food then your covering those other inhabitants. It could all be in my mind... It would be easy to test that out over a week. Let me get my SPS and tank in order first before I experiment lol.