Cupramine 20G QT / 125 G Fallow Run

gjustinj · May 15, 2017

I started Cupramine yesterday on my 20G tank. I did a 1/2 dose (15 drops) of it yesterday, this morning all the fish are doing well except my flame angel, it's laying on its side swimming in circles. Granted the flame angel was not eating for about 5 days. We believe it had some serious ich issues.

With that said, should I dose another 15 drops today? I feel like it will totally kill the flame if I do so. Should I wait to see if he can build up an immunity under this conditions? or is he a goner? My next question is now that I am doing this and allowing my tank to go fallow for 76 days.. when I add new fish later down the road they have to go into QT and copper and worm treatments done before they go into the tank? How will I ever be able to have another flame angel if they can't even take a 1/2 of dose?

Brew12 · May 15, 2017

gjustinj said:
I started Cupramine yesterday on my 20G tank. I did a 1/2 dose (15 drops) of it yesterday, this morning all the fish are doing well except my flame angel, it's laying on its side swimming in circles. Granted the flame angel was not eating for about 5 days. We believe it had some serious ich issues.

With that said, should I dose another 15 drops today? I feel like it will totally kill the flame if I do so. Should I wait to see if he can build up an immunity under this conditions? or is he a goner? My next question is now that I am doing this and allowing my tank to go fallow for 76 days.. when I add new fish later down the road they have to go into QT and copper and worm treatments done before they go into the tank? How will I ever be able to have another flame angel if they can't even take a 1/2 of dose?

I wouldn't dose any more right now. Give the fish some time to adjust. I normally don't use Cupramine but I try to ramp my copper levels up much more slowly. I believe 40 drops would be the correct dosage for your tank.

Moving forward, I would add 5 drops tonight, then 5 more each morning and evening for the next 2 days until you reach the full 40 drops. Test it to make sure you are where you need to be before and after the last dose.

gjustinj · May 15, 2017

Brew12 said:
I wouldn't dose any more right now. Give the fish some time to adjust. I normally don't use Cupramine but I try to ramp my copper levels up much more slowly. I believe 40 drops would be the correct dosage for your tank.

Moving forward, I would add 5 drops tonight, then 5 more each morning and evening for the next 2 days until you reach the full 40 drops. Test it to make sure you are where you need to be before and after the last dose.

okay, thanks!

ngoodermuth · May 15, 2017

Is the flame angel breathing really hard or fast? If so, a fw dip might help clear his gills a bit and buy him some more time for the copper to work.

gjustinj · May 15, 2017

ngoodermuth said:
Is the flame angel breathing really hard or fast? If so, a fw dip might help clear his gills a bit and buy him some more time for the copper to work.

So just get like a bowl of fresh water from the tap? I don't have an R/O yet. I mix prime for 24 hours w/ salt water via my DT during this 'fallow' period.

ngoodermuth · May 15, 2017

gjustinj said:
So just get like a bowl of fresh water from the tap? I don't have an R/O yet. I mix prime for 24 hours w/ salt water via my DT during this 'fallow' period.

You aren't using the prime with copper are you? That WILL kill your fish!

If there is prime in the water in your QT that would explain the angels behavior as prime causes the copper to be something like10x more toxic.

Can you get R/O water from a store for the time being? I used to get water from a machine at my local grocery store for something like $.25/gallon. You don't want prime in your copper water.

gjustinj · May 15, 2017

ngoodermuth said:
You aren't using the prime with copper are you? That WILL kill your fish!

Not directly in the 20G QT. The prime is mixed in a bin w/ salt from tap water, and then entered into my 125G display tank, after it being in the DT for 24 hours I do water change on the 20G QT using the DT water.

ngoodermuth · May 15, 2017

I'm not sure how long prime is active in the water #reefsquad

Either way, here is a thread detailing how to do the fw dip. I would condition the tap water like you usually do, just without salt. Then you temp match and aerate the water for 30 mins.

Freshwater Dip

https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/Freshwater-Dip.248898/

JaimeAdams · May 15, 2017

According to Seachem, prime is active for 48 hours. Seachem also stated that it is safe to use with copper after 24 hours. The flame angel going into treatment was not doing well. It had not eaten for almost a week and was pretty heavily infested with crypt and in my opinion was on it's way out prior to the start of treatment. I feel that if you can't get the fish that is infested to eat in the Display tank the chances are slim of it happening in treatment and if a fish isn't eating the chances of survival are pretty dismal.

Wether or not you treat new fish before placing them into your DT is a personal choice. Obviously the only way to be sure that you are not re-infecting the tank is to proactively treat in a QT. Some people do this others just buy healthy fish and simply observe them and treat only if they need to.

gjustinj · May 15, 2017

JaimeAdams said:
According to Seachem, prime is active for 48 hours. Seachem also stated that it is safe to use with copper after 24 hours. The flame angel going into treatment was not doing well. It had not eaten for almost a week and was pretty heavily infested with crypt and in my opinion was on it's way out prior to the start of treatment. I feel that if you can't get the fish that is infested to eat in the Display tank the chances are slim of it happening in treatment and if a fish isn't eating the chances of survival are pretty dismal.

Wether or not you treat new fish before placing them into your DT is a personal choice. Obviously the only way to be sure that you are not re-infecting the tank is to proactively treat in a QT. Some people do this others just buy healthy fish and simply observe them and treat only if they need to.

What if I do freshwater dip in just the plain tap water for a few min on the flame angel? I grabbed some tupperware and i got an airhose blowing into it right now with tap water in there. No Prime. I want to try anything possible to save this flame even if the chances are not good. JaimeAdams - perhaps when this is all over you can go fish shopping with me? Help me pick out healthy fish? not a lot at a time this time around.

ngoodermuth · May 15, 2017

gjustinj said:
What if I do freshwater dip in just the plain tap water for a few min on the flame angel? I grabbed some tupperware and i got an airhose blowing into it right now with tap water in there. No Prime. I want to try anything possible to save this flame even if the chances are not good. JaimeAdams - perhaps when this is all over you can go fish shopping with me? Help me pick out healthy fish? not a lot at a time this time around.

I wouldn't use unconditioned tap water.

gjustinj · May 15, 2017

ngoodermuth said:
I wouldn't use unconditioned tap water.

i don't have the time to condition it, if i put it in conditioned it will surely kill him cus of the chemical reaction with cupramine.

JaimeAdams · May 15, 2017

Treat the fresh water with the prime. There is no copper in the fresh water from your tap.

JaimeAdams · May 15, 2017

just tap water will fry the gills with chlorine and chloramine and certainly kill the fish that is on his way out. Yes, we can go fish shopping and pick out fish that aren't already cover in parasites when you buy them, or at least showing visible signs.

Areseebee · May 15, 2017

I think even like a jug of distilled water would be better than tap, but someone can check me on that.... I used to use distilled in a nano in a dorm room but a lot has changed since then!

gjustinj · May 15, 2017

OK I did the dip for about 60sec he pretended to be dead. Freaked me out he's back in QT spinning in circles on the bottom. It's like his equalibrium is off

gjustinj · May 15, 2017

Ordered RO unit at BRS 4 stage, will be here in 3-4 days.

gjustinj · May 16, 2017

5 drops were added last night, and an additional 5 this morning. Flame is still alive, but moving far less arched on his side and his gills are still moving fast. Should I take him out of there and throw him in a plastic container with DT water? Perhaps this copper treatment is too much for him? Would moving him out to a bucket w/ DT and a heater with some an air hose potentially save him? Perhaps he could get better, and then try the treatment again at even smaller doses in the bucket?

miyags · May 16, 2017

what is your copper level at? do you have an ammonia badge?

gjustinj · May 16, 2017

miyags said:
what is your copper level at? do you have an ammonia badge?

It's only been a total of 15 drops the first day, and 10 between last and this morning, so we are at 25 drops at this point. I have a test kit, but I am not supposed to test until tomorrow after the next 10 drops, right? Ammonia badges do not work properly.