Cupramine 20G QT / 125 G Fallow Run

[Areseebee]

They SHOULD work, but if what you mean is that you can't read it, I agree entirely... neither can I.

 

[JaimeAdams]

Don't forget to mention any water changes that you have done that lower the copper concentrations. If the fish has not eaten in a week and swimming in circles on his side, he is on his way out. At this point I would concentrate on slowly raising the copper levels and treating the rest of the fish that are savable. Moving the flame to a bucket probably is not going to entice him to start eating out of the blue and that is what needs to happen, although I have never seen fish that far gone that has recovered especially considering he is still covered in parasites.

 

[gjustinj]

Don't forget to mention any water changes that you have done that lower the copper concentrations. If the fish has not eaten in a week and swimming in circles on his side, he is on his way out. At this point I would concentrate on slowly raising the copper levels and treating the rest of the fish that are savable. Moving the flame to a bucket probably is not going to entice him to start eating out of the blue and that is what needs to happen, although I have never seen fish that far gone that has recovered especially considering he is still covered in parasites.

I moved the flame out to the buckets - gotta try. Nothings changed for the other fish they are handling the copper 5 drops at night and 5 drops in the morning well. I will begin testing with copper treatments tomorrow after tonight and tomorrows 5 doses. I can't live with myself not trying to save that Flame Angel. I am going to try to get it back to where it's not laying on its side and keep working on feeding it.. That seems like the best answer for this fish, maybe treat it for worms or something in the mean time in case something like that is bothering it?

 

[gjustinj]

Flame is gone. Rip =( Put another 5 drops in with the others will do another 5 before bed and another 5in the moring them test copper levels.

 

[JaimeAdams]

Sorry that the flame died, but at least now we can concentrate on the fish that will make it.

 

[gjustinj]

Okay, this morning I woke up and did a Salifer Copper Test, it looked pretty clear after 10 and even 20 minutes (I believe it needs to be a slight tint of blue for it to be at 0.5 copper. With that said, I dosed 5 more cupramine drops in the morning, and then today (just now) at lunch I dropped in 5 more. Remaining fish look good, they are swimming around the plastic plants without issue. I will perform another 20% water change after work, and then dose 5 more drops and then again after an hour of dosing. Hopefully I will get up to where I need to be, or close. This is a scary process - this is not enjoyable in the least, but I guess every fish that goes into my DT after the fallow period has to go through this. I will more likely also do a worm test too @JaimeAdams you mentioned the best tests on the phone the other day but i could barely hear you so once we get through this, lets look into that. RO/DI unit should be at my door today (it's out for delivery)

 

[ngoodermuth]

If you do a 20% water change you are going to need to add more that the 5 drops to replace what's coming out. I'm using cupramine myself, it takes about 11-12 drops to get a 5g bucket of fresh saltwater to .5

 

[gjustinj]

If you do a 20% water change you are going to need to add more that the 5 drops to replace what's coming out. I'm using cupramine myself, it takes about 11-12 drops to get a 5g bucket of fresh saltwater to .5

so after my next I should do like another 11-12 drops? So about 20 drops a day (after each water change)?

I am trying to read the test kit, my water appears really clear so far and looking at the colored squares i don't want to be below .10 which is the next square after white, the difference between white and that color blue are not much. How in the world do you not hit .10?

 

[ngoodermuth]

Can you take a picture the next time you test and we can see where you are? I wouldn't assume x drops per day without testing. Eventually it will start to accumulate in the water, and you definitely don't want to have TOO much copper either. It's a balancing act, you don't want it to go below .4 or above .6 once you get it there.

 

[beaslbob]

According to Seachem, prime is active for 48 hours. Seachem also stated that it is safe to use with copper after 24 hours. The flame angel going into treatment was not doing well. It had not eaten for almost a week and was pretty heavily infested with crypt and in my opinion was on it's way out prior to the start of treatment. I feel that if you can't get the fish that is infested to eat in the Display tank the chances are slim of it happening in treatment and if a fish isn't eating the chances of survival are pretty dismal.

Wether or not you treat new fish before placing them into your DT is a personal choice. Obviously the only way to be sure that you are not re-infecting the tank is to proactively treat in a QT. Some people do this others just buy healthy fish and simply observe them and treat only if they need to.

FWIW Prime is toxic to fish and reduces oxygen. Which can cause the symptoms your are experiencing. (sure at instruction levels it supposed to be safe)
One problem that can occur is with prime you change the dangerous free ammonia to the safe(r) locked ammonia. But most test kits do not differentiate between the two and still test positive for ammonia. So you use more prime when the first dose might have locked up the ammonia. And in the process lower oxygen in the system. So the fish can suffocate. Which shows the same symptoms as ammonia.
I hope you fish will recover.

 

[gjustinj]

Can you take a picture the next time you test and we can see where you are? I wouldn't assume x drops per day without testing. Eventually it will start to accumulate in the water, and you definitely don't want to have TOO much copper either. It's a balancing act, you don't want it to go below .4 or above .6 once you get it there.

I can try, but I don't know how close the image color will be to the actual physical one.

 

[gjustinj]

FWIW Prime is toxic to fish and reduces oxygen. Which can cause the symptoms your are experiencing. (sure at instruction levels it supposed to be safe)
One problem that can occur is with prime you change the dangerous free ammonia to the safe(r) locked ammonia. But most test kits do not differentiate between the two and still test positive for ammonia. So you use more prime when the first dose might have locked up the ammonia. And in the process lower oxygen in the system. So the fish can suffocate. Which shows the same symptoms as ammonia.
I hope you fish will recover.

Fish died as per above, and RO/DI unit just arrived at the front door. Ty

 

[Areseebee]

I can try, but I don't know how close the image color will be to the actual physical one.

So long as you have the reference in the picture it should be ok. I find any of these colormetric tests absolutely impossible to read with any kind of accuracy. I've started doing typical image analysis techniques against standards (obviously only for important tests that are worth the time). I did it here (https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/white-thing-over-regal-angel-fin.296562/) for the ammonia badge... I've kind of always been meaning to try this against standards and test the accuracy of this technique against known ammonia levels but........ effort. I also did this for the coppersafe test at one point but I never posted it online, I think the hardest thing is to standardize illumination from day to day.

 

[miyags]

Sorry to hear. I think you needed to use (seachem multitest copper) for cuprimine

 

[JaimeAdams]

Sorry to hear. I think you needed to use (seachem multitest copper) for cuprimine

From @Humblefish

"Salifert and Seachem copper test kit only measure in the low range. These cater to Cupramine, which is ionic copper designed to be effective in the low range of 0.35-0.5 ppm.

Coppersafe and "Kordon Copper-AID" are chelated copper, a completely different animal. Chelated copper is only effective in the high range of 1.5-2.0 ppm. So, to measure chelated copper you need a "total copper test kit" such as API copper test kit."

 

[Brew12]

From @Humblefish

"Salifert and Seachem copper test kit only measure in the low range. These cater to Cupramine, which is ionic copper designed to be effective in the low range of 0.35-0.5 ppm.

Coppersafe and "Kordon Copper-AID" are chelated copper, a completely different animal. Chelated copper is only effective in the high range of 1.5-2.0 ppm. So, to measure chelated copper you need a "total copper test kit" such as API copper test kit."

I agree, it is the right test kit. I don't know why, but many people find copper test kits very difficult to read. I use the API test kit and the color looks more orange than any of the samples. What I recommend is to take a gallon of tank water and dose it as recommended for that particular copper. Test it with the kit and use the results as your new target. Any lighter and you are low. Any darker and you are high.

 

[JaimeAdams]

I agree, it is the right test kit. I don't know why, but many people find copper test kits very difficult to read. I use the API test kit and the color looks more orange than any of the samples. What I recommend is to take a gallon of tank water and dose it as recommended for that particular copper. Test it with the kit and use the results as your new target. Any lighter and you are low. Any darker and you are high.

That is exactly what I told him to do last night when I gave him a call. Make a mix up with the known dose and use that as his control sample to compare the tank water samples against.