Cupramine threatment half dose?

[olavvk]

hi! I bought a new gramma loreto and put him in the QT. After 5 days I saw him scrubbing along the PVC pipes so i asume he has ich. He eats well and seems normal. But as of today I want to start the cupramine treatment. Its my first time cure a fish so i was wondering if its better to use the half dose of the indicated dose as I saw videos on youtube of people telling that the recommend cupramine dose is near to toxic. Can somebody help me with this question?

 

[Miami Reef]

Most likely flukes if it’s scratching.

You always want to follow the recommended dose because going under will not eradicate the parasites. With cupramine or copper power use the Hannah test kit. Copper power is much more gentle and the therapeutic range is 2.0-2.5ppm.

 

[Miami Reef]

Flukes – General Guidelines

Many thanks to "Newsmyrna80" for writing this. Reposted with her permission. Some facts: Flukes are not true flukes. They are actually parasitic flatworms belonging to the class of Monogeans. There are 13 families of flukes. However, only three families infect saltwater fish. 1...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[olavvk]

Most likely flukes if it’s scratching.

You always want to follow the recommended dose because going under will not eradicate the parasites. With cupramine or copper power use the Hannah test kit. Copper power is much more gentle and the therapeutic range is 2.0-2.5ppm.

Hmm i think it should be ich as i saw 2 days ago also 2/3 small white dots on his tail. But yesterday it was gone.

 

[Miami Reef]

Hmm i think it should be ich as i saw 2 days ago also 2/3 small white dots on his tail. But yesterday it was gone.

It could be both. People usually treat for both, but a freshwater dip done properly can confirm if there’s flukes or not.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Pics will be helpful. Near impossible to make recommendation for treatment without identification
Sounds like lympho but pics again will confirm

 

[olavvk]

Pics will be helpful. Near impossible to make recommendation for treatment without identification
Sounds like lympho but pics again will confirm

Here some pics.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Here some pics.

I don’t see any signs of ich and this was likely from your description lymphocystis which is associated with water quality and falls off in its own
Should you see dots again, please post pics
A good preventative is ruby rally pro which treats an array of issues

 

[olavvk]

I don’t see any signs of ich and this was likely from your description lymphocystis which is associated with water quality and falls off in its own
Should you see dots again, please post pics
A good preventative is ruby rally pro which treats an array of issues

No today me neither and he looks swimming normal and was eating. But 2 days ago i saw 2/3 really small white dots on his tail and he swam against the pvc tube as if he was itching

 

[olavvk]

Do you think i should just start the treatment of cupramine? Or should i wait until i see signs of sickness?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Do you think i should just start the treatment of cupramine? Or should i wait until i see signs of sickness?

Just chiming in here:

The thread title is "Cupramine half dose" - never do this. Yes, the dose for copper needed to kill parasite is close to what is toxic to the fish, but anything less than that does not take care of the disease issue. Personally, I prefer Coppersafe over Cupramine, but many people use Cupramine on royal gramma with no problems. The big issue with Cupramine is to never us it with a reducing agent like Prime, formalin or ammonia removers. That will make the copper in it more toxic to the fish.

Your gramma may have ich - the spots coming and going early on is pretty common. It probably also has flukes, as those cause scratching more so than ich does. The treatment of choice for flukes in the US is praziquantel. I checked Amazon-ES and didn't see any listed, can you get that drug?


Since the gramma is in a quarantine tank, another possibility would be hyposalinity - low salt level. That would help with both ich and flukes. However, you would need to go to a specific gravity of 1.009 for 30 days.

Jay

 

[olavvk]

Just chiming in here:

The thread title is "Cupramine half dose" - never do this. Yes, the dose for copper needed to kill parasite is close to what is toxic to the fish, but anything less than that does not take care of the disease issue. Personally, I prefer Coppersafe over Cupramine, but many people use Cupramine on royal gramma with no problems. The big issue with Cupramine is to never us it with a reducing agent like Prime, formalin or ammonia removers. That will make the copper in it more toxic to the fish.

Your gramma may have ich - the spots coming and going early on is pretty common. It probably also has flukes, as those cause scratching more so than ich does. The treatment of choice for flukes in the US is praziquantel. I checked Amazon-ES and didn't see any listed, can you get that drug?


Since the gramma is in a quarantine tank, another possibility would be hyposalinity - low salt level. That would help with both ich and flukes. However, you would need to go to a specific gravity of 1.009 for 30 days.

Jay

Hi Jay, thanks for your detailed explanation.

I have to say I only saw the scraping down the tube Once 2 days ago, and I've been observing the fish a lot the last few days. (it's been in there for a week now).
is it a good option to still use the cupramine for 2 weeks and change water more often? I do not use amonia reducers and I have an amonia alert and salifert test to track amonia.

the fish is in my eyes normal at the moment and does not look or act sick. I just want to prevent a parasite from getting into my DT.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hi Jay, thanks for your detailed explanation.

I have to say I only saw the scraping down the tube Once 2 days ago, and I've been observing the fish a lot the last few days. (it's been in there for a week now).
is it a good option to still use the cupramine for 2 weeks and change water more often? I do not use amonia reducers and I have an amonia alert and salifert test to track amonia.

the fish is in my eyes normal at the moment and does not look or act sick. I just want to prevent a parasite from getting into my DT.

Well, I always presume new fish to be carrying disease, and I treat with copper and prazi prophylactically. I think you should run Cupramine for two weeks and then treat for flukes (maybe you can get fenbendazole in Spain?)

Jay

 

[LeftyReefer]

I've had a Royal Gramma with flukes before. Was itching the side of it's head on rocks and occasionally would dive down and rub on the sand too. PraziPro took care of it. It does take several treatments though, timed a certain amount of days apart to break the life cycle of the flukes. One dose usually won't do the job completely.

If this is a new fish, I'd put it in a QT tank and run a full copper treatment, along with the Prazi.

 

[MnFish1]

Hmm i think it should be ich as i saw 2 days ago also 2/3 small white dots on his tail. But yesterday it was gone.

I would recommend that you follow the instructions on the bottle.
Second - you can also call the company directly and get their comments on whatever video you saw on YouTube.

I know this is probably not that helpful - but IMHO - more problems - with testing, dosing, etc - are caused by 'not following directions' than almost any other factor in this hobby

 

[olavvk]

I've had a Royal Gramma with flukes before. Was itching the side of it's head on rocks and occasionally would dive down and rub on the sand too. PraziPro took care of it. It does take several treatments though, timed a certain amount of days apart to break the life cycle of the flukes. One dose usually won't do the job completely.

If this is a new fish, I'd put it in a QT tank and run a full copper treatment, along with the Prazi.

Thanks for the tips! Unfortunately i could not find any website that sells Prazipro here in Spain so i need to look for any alternative

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks for the tips! Unfortunately i could not find any website that sells Prazipro here in Spain so i need to look for any alternative

https://pillintrip.com/search_analog_praziquantel_in_spain

You just need to be extremely careful that the dosage matches the dose of prazipro - I know @Jay Hemdal has some experience using different varieties

 

[olavvk]

Ok guys, so i dosed the cupramine as the instructions on the bottle on monday. 20 drops for 40 liters, so the qt is 35 liters and around 30 liters of water so i dosed 15 drops. After that day he was hiding all the time. 2 days ago i decided to change 20% water because i saw he was still hiding the whole day. Now i came home and he was laying in his spot on his side And breaths really fast. I did now a 70% water change. Hopefully he will survive.. but if somebody reads this and wants to dose cupramine. Never dose like the instructions because it will kill your fish. If people have any more tips for now, please reply on my post!

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Ok guys, so i dosed the cupramine as the instructions on the bottle on monday. 20 drops for 40 liters, so the qt is 35 liters and around 30 liters of water so i dosed 15 drops. After that day he was hiding all the time. 2 days ago i decided to change 20% water because i saw he was still hiding the whole day. Now i came home and he was laying in his spot on his side And breaths really fast. I did now a 70% water change. Hopefully he will survive.. but if somebody reads this and wants to dose cupramine. Never dose like the instructions because it will kill your fish. If people have any more tips for now, please reply on my post!

One thing I don't think they tell you in the instructions is not to dose without checking the dose against a good copper test kit.

Did you add any reducing agents to the water that you changed? Ammonia removers and some dechlorintators will free up the copper bound in Cupramine and cause a toxic reaction.

Jay

 

[LeftyReefer]

Do you have a copper test kit? preferably the Hanna copper checker?

I've found cupramine to be pretty harsh on fish and you really need to be sure what the level is....