Cupramine threatment half dose?

[olavvk]

One thing I don't think they tell you in the instructions is not to dose without checking the dose against a good copper test kit.

Did you add any reducing agents to the water that you changed? Ammonia removers and some dechlorintators will free up the copper bound in Cupramine and cause a toxic reaction.

Jay

Hi Jay, no I did not use anything in the tank neither the changed water. Yesterday putted a carbon filterpad inside to remove the copper. For the testkit i used the Salifert copper testkit and it lookes like it was already near 0,5 after the first dose

 

[MnFish1]

Ok guys, so i dosed the cupramine as the instructions on the bottle on monday. 20 drops for 40 liters, so the qt is 35 liters and around 30 liters of water so i dosed 15 drops. After that day he was hiding all the time. 2 days ago i decided to change 20% water because i saw he was still hiding the whole day. Now i came home and he was laying in his spot on his side And breaths really fast. I did now a 70% water change. Hopefully he will survive.. but if somebody reads this and wants to dose cupramine. Never dose like the instructions because it will kill your fish. If people have any more tips for now, please reply on my post!

I think you make a good point. Drops - to one person - are different depending on pressure, etc. And the hole in the bottle (which IMHO should be the same)
I would not dismiss cupramine. There are a number of variables - tank volume being key - I do not see any mention of you measuring copper levels which (no offense) is key (to me)

 

[olavvk]

I think you make a good point. Drops - to one person - are different depending on pressure, etc. And the hole in the bottle (which IMHO should be the same)
I would not dismiss cupramine. There are a number of variables - tank volume being key - I do not see any mention of you measuring copper levels which (no offense) is key (to me).

I waited until monday because my test kit from Salifert was delivered so then i started. I did 15 min after te initial dose a test and it was near to 0,5 ( maybe around 0,4 but its shows in the test only colors from 0,25 to 0,5). But i was thinking maybe it was not mixed well just 15 min after the dose. A day later it was still the same around 0,4 so thats why i changed 30% of the water.

 

[olavvk]

Update: unfortunately he is dead. But, i am curious now. Now that i saw him dead i see definitely Ich. But before the threatment he was doing really fine. Did the stress brought the ich? Or did he already had it and it shows up now? See the picture attached, i see white dots all over his tail and some on his body.

 

[MnFish1]

Update: unfortunately he is dead. But, i am curious now. Now that i saw him dead i see definitely Ich. But before the threatment he was doing really fine. Did the stress brought the ich? Or did he already had it and it shows up now? See the picture attached, i see white dots all over his tail and some on his body.

not sure there is a good answer to that question - BUT - Ich does not jump onto dead fish (I'm not sure if that was your question)

 

[olavvk]

not sure there is a good answer to that question - BUT - Ich does not jump onto dead fish (I'm not sure if that was your question)

Well, he should have it from the lfs than i think. My question is, can fish can still get ich if the used water is fresh made by yourself without any source of the ich? Or should he already had in when I bought him in the Lfs? And would the ich also always expose itself if I hadn't started the treatment?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Update: unfortunately he is dead. But, i am curious now. Now that i saw him dead i see definitely Ich. But before the threatment he was doing really fine. Did the stress brought the ich? Or did he already had it and it shows up now? See the picture attached, i see white dots all over his tail and some on his body.

Could they just be particles of something from the tank that got stuck to him after death?

Jay

 

[olavvk]

Could they just be particles of something from the tank that got stuck to him after death?

Jay

Hmm no, i checked it from really close and pretty sure it was not something from the tank. I made a picture a bit darker to see the white spots better.

 

[Tamberav]

I had an angel in observation tank (QT) and ich didn't show up till 30 days in. My guess is the angel had it in lower levels in the gills.

Ich can not spontaneously generate out of nothing so it would have to come from LFS. Not all fish show symptoms....but that can change under stress or if the ich multiplies enough to overwhelm a fishes immune system/slime coat.

I personally would not trust using cupramin with a test kit other than hannah high range copper kit and even then I would rather use Copper Power or Copper Safe. Your basically dealing with something that has a narrow margin for effective vs toxic and relying to tell pink from slightly darker pink on a color wheel.

I also would never do 'half dose' like random youtuber says. That doesn't cure the fish. Either treat it or don't but half dose is pointless imo.

Copper takes 3 days? to start working and your fish does look like it has a lot of spots to me but so does the glass.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hmm no, i checked it from really close and pretty sure it was not something from the tank. I made a picture a bit darker to see the white spots better.

Without a microscope, I don't think you'll be able to tell for sure. See the glass bottom of the tank? It looks like it has spots also.

I can't recall every seeing ich clearly on a fish post-mortem, and if it wasn't showing spots before death, I still wonder if it picked up some crud from the bottom of the tank.

jay

 

[LeftyReefer]

hi! I bought a new gramma loreto and put him in the QT. After 5 days I saw him scrubbing along the PVC pipes so i asume he has ich. He eats well and seems normal. But as of today I want to start the cupramine treatment. Its my first time cure a fish so i was wondering if its better to use the half dose of the indicated dose as I saw videos on youtube of people telling that the recommend cupramine dose is near to toxic. Can somebody help me with this question?

Hmm i think it should be ich as i saw 2 days ago also 2/3 small white dots on his tail. But yesterday it was gone.

No today me neither and he looks swimming normal and was eating. But 2 days ago i saw 2/3 really small white dots on his tail and he swam against the pvc tube as if he was itching

Update: unfortunately he is dead. But, i am curious now. Now that i saw him dead i see definitely Ich. But before the threatment he was doing really fine. Did the stress brought the ich? Or did he already had it and it shows up now? See the picture attached, i see white dots all over his tail and some on his body.

Sounds like he had ICH the entire time.

You should assume any fish you buy is carrying something and should be put through a full QT. as soon as you suspected ICH, the clock was counting against this fish. The longer it didn't get treatment, the worse it was getting.

when a fish has ICH, the spots can come and go as the ICH parasite goes through different life stages. That should have been another clue that yes, this was ICH.

 

[olavvk]

still dificult to say whay happend exactly here.

sorry for all the questions, but i want to buy a new royal gramma.

what should i do with the qt? Waiting the ich cycle of 4 weeks as there is possible ich inside? Or put a new one in and directly dose cupramine slowly this time?

or refill the tank completely to remove all copper that is still inside?

 

[olavvk]

Sounds like he had ICH the entire time.

You should assume any fish you buy is carrying something and should be put through a full QT. as soon as you suspected ICH, the clock was counting against this fish. The longer it didn't get treatment, the worse it was getting.

when a fish has ICH, the spots can come and go as the ICH parasite goes through different life stages. That should have been another clue that yes, this was ICH.

Yes i think the ich was already present. But the day before he died, he came out his hole once when i put my finger on the glass so i checked him and did NOT saw the white spots as a day later. Could this be outbreak in 24 hours like from nothing to full of white spots?

 

[LeftyReefer]

Yes i think the ich was already present. But the day before he died, he came out his hole once when i put my finger on the glass so i checked him and did NOT saw the white spots as a day later. Could this be outbreak in 24 hours like from nothing to full of white spots?

It didn't happen in 24 hours. It's been happening and getting worse since you got the fish. It's had ICH the entire time. The ICH parasite goes through different life stages. free swimming stage, egg stages, etc.. The ICH is free swimming and attaches to your fish and actively starts feeding on the fish. That is when you see spots on the fish. after a few days the parasites begin to detach and drop off the fish (the spots go away) and then the ICH lay eggs (cysts) which attach to the substrate. Copper doesn't kill ICH cysts/eggs. Then after a few more days the cysts in the substrate begin to hatch and then the ICH swim up and attach to your fish again and you see spots again, probably more than last time.... then they feed for a while on the fish again before they drop off to lay more eggs, rinse, repeat... the ICH just keeps multiplying and attacking the fish worse. The spots come and go, but the ICH was still there and getting worse. Just because you didn't see spots one day didn't mean there was no ICH. The ICH was probably just in a egg stage not the free swimming/feeding on your fish stage. So going from no spots to spots and a dead fish, didn't just happen in 24 hours, it's been happening since you brought the fish home with ICH from the LFS.

That's why you need to run copper at the correct therapeutic level for a full 30 days. The copper doesn't kill the cysts/eggs, only the free swimmers, so you have to keep the fish in high enough level of copper long enough to kill the free swimming ICH, and then allow enough time for all the cysts to hatch and become free swimming ICH, which the copper can then kill. If you don't keep the fish in copper long enough, more cysts will hatch and reinfect the fish. You have to keep copper going long enough to outlast all the ICH and ICH eggs in the tank. Generally 30 days is advised. You might be able to do it in a shorter time, but 30 days is best practice.

still dificult to say whay happend exactly here.

sorry for all the questions, but i want to buy a new royal gramma.

what should i do with the qt? Waiting the ich cycle of 4 weeks as there is possible ich inside? Or put a new one in and directly dose cupramine slowly this time?

or refill the tank completely to remove all copper that is still inside?

If you dose the QT with the proper amount of copper, you will begin to kill the ICH in the QT tank. First it will kill the free swimming ICH and then when the eggs hatch, the copper will kill them too. so you can start that process now, even before you get the new fish.

So I would go ahead and dose the QT tank with copper to the correct level now. Then when you get a new RG, put it in the QT tank and keep it there for 30 days. The 30 day clock doesn't start till you add the RG. by the end of 30 days, all the ICH should be gone, provided you NEVER let the copper level dip below the therapeutic level... if if does at any point, then you have to raise it back up and start the 30 day timer over. When doing any water changes, you have to dose your new water with copper to the proper level before adding it to the QT tank.

Or option #2 would be to drain the tank, bleach it, and start over but then you'd have to cycle the tank again and this would require a lot more new saltwater.

 

[olavvk]

It didn't happen in 24 hours. It's been happening and getting worse since you got the fish. It's had ICH the entire time. The ICH parasite goes through different life stages. free swimming stage, egg stages, etc.. The ICH is free swimming and attaches to your fish and actively starts feeding on the fish. That is when you see spots on the fish. after a few days the parasites begin to detach and drop off the fish (the spots go away) and then the ICH lay eggs (cysts) which attach to the substrate. Copper doesn't kill ICH cysts/eggs. Then after a few more days the cysts in the substrate begin to hatch and then the ICH swim up and attach to your fish again and you see spots again, probably more than last time.... then they feed for a while on the fish again before they drop off to lay more eggs, rinse, repeat... the ICH just keeps multiplying and attacking the fish worse. The spots come and go, but the ICH was still there and getting worse. Just because you didn't see spots one day didn't mean there was no ICH. The ICH was probably just in a egg stage not the free swimming/feeding on your fish stage. So going from no spots to spots and a dead fish, didn't just happen in 24 hours, it's been happening since you brought the fish home with ICH from the LFS.

That's why you need to run copper at the correct therapeutic level for a full 30 days. The copper doesn't kill the cysts/eggs, only the free swimmers, so you have to keep the fish in high enough level of copper long enough to kill the free swimming ICH, and then allow enough time for all the cysts to hatch and become free swimming ICH, which the copper can then kill. If you don't keep the fish in copper long enough, more cysts will hatch and reinfect the fish. You have to keep copper going long enough to outlast all the ICH and ICH eggs in the tank. Generally 30 days is advised. You might be able to do it in a shorter time, but 30 days is best practice.



If you dose the QT with the proper amount of copper, you will begin to kill the ICH in the QT tank. First it will kill the free swimming ICH and then when the eggs hatch, the copper will kill them too. so you can start that process now, even before you get the new fish.

So I would go ahead and dose the QT tank with copper to the correct level now. Then when you get a new RG, put it in the QT tank and keep it there for 30 days. The 30 day clock doesn't start till you add the RG. by the end of 30 days, all the ICH should be gone, provided you NEVER let the copper level dip below the therapeutic level... if if does at any point, then you have to raise it back up and start the 30 day timer over. When doing any water changes, you have to dose your new water with copper to the proper level before adding it to the QT tank.

Or option #2 would be to drain the tank, bleach it, and start over but then you'd have to cycle the tank again and this would require a lot more new saltwater.

Really usefull answer, thanks. So if will continue now with the copper and it will be at 0,5 as the therapeutic level to beat ich, how does that go if i want to add the gramma, because then he will be introduced in a tank with a cupramine level of 0,5 already no?

 

[LeftyReefer]

Really usefull answer, thanks. So if will continue now with the copper and it will be at 0,5 as the therapeutic level to beat ich, how does that go if i want to add the gramma, because then he will be introduced in a tank with a cupramine level of 0,5 already no?

If you wanted to temporarily lower the copper content the day you get the new fish, that would be fine.
I would keep it at the therapeutic level until then, to kill the ICH in the tank now. Then just do a water change to remove some of the copper right before you add him, and then add more copper as soon as you feel comfortable to get it back up to therapeutic level and then start your 30 day count down.

FYI, I don't bother ramping copper. I just put in a full dose right off the bat, but I use copper power now, not cupramine.
with cupramine it might not be a bad idea to ramp it up like that, it seems a bit harsher on fish than copper power or coppersafe. Are either of those available in Spain? I much prefer them over cupramine if possible.

 

[olavvk]

If you wanted to temporarily lower the copper content the day you get the new fish, that would be fine.
I would keep it at the therapeutic level until then, to kill the ICH in the tank now. Then just do a water change to remove some of the copper right before you add him, and then add more copper as soon as you feel comfortable to get it back up to therapeutic level and then start your 30 day count down.

FYI, I don't bother ramping copper. I just put in a full dose right off the bat, but I use copper power now, not cupramine.
with cupramine it might not be a bad idea to ramp it up like that, it seems a bit harsher on fish than copper power or coppersafe. Are either of those available in Spain? I much prefer them over cupramine if possible.

Ok clear! What are the known brands for copper power or copper save? I see some, but dont know if the brand matters

 

[LeftyReefer]

Ok clear! What are the known brands for copper power or copper save? I see some, but dont know if the brand matters

Over here, Copper Power (Endich) is the brand. It comes in green (freshwater) and blue (marine) versions. You want the blue one obviously. Or (Mardel) Coppersafe is made by Fritz. I'm not sure if there is a freshwater version of that one or not, so be sure it's for marine use. I use (marine) Copper Power personally. And I highly recommend the Hanna Copper checker too!

 

[olavvk]

Over here, Copper Power (Endich) is the brand. It comes in green (freshwater) and blue (marine) versions. You want the blue one obviously. Or (Mardel) Coppersafe is made by Fritz. I'm not sure if there is a freshwater version of that one or not, so be sure it's for marine use. I use (marine) Copper Power personally. And I highly recommend the Hanna Copper checker too!

This should be the right one.
ok so then maybe better to first bring cupramine on the right level to kill the ich, then remove all the water and refill with fresh made water, and then buy the fish and introduce him with the threatment of copper safe?

 

[LeftyReefer]

This should be the right one.
ok so then maybe better to first bring cupramine on the right level to kill the ich, then remove all the water and refill with fresh made water, and then buy the fish and introduce him with the threatment of copper safe?

That would be fine too.

Just FYI, you don't want to mix the two.... they are two different forms of copper... One is Ionic copper, one is chelated copper. Both are effective, but different forms of copper, so you aren't supposed to mix them. So just be sure to change all the water when switching.