Cyanide poisoning or something else

[Bleigh]

I did a search, and see this is not an uncommon topic, but wanted to put my information out there and see if anyone had any other ideas.

I have slowly been losing fish that I purchased all around the same time. They all have seemed healthy and eager to eat until recently. One by one they have started hiding. And only coming out to eat. Then they lose interest even in that. The first fish this happened to (a chalk bass) I had not seen in a few days and assumed it was dead. When I spotted it, I netted it and out it in a hospital tank with a piece of rock from the sump. He seemed totally fine. No issues with gills, breathing fine, great color, no pinched stomach, eyes seems to be moving and watching things, swimming fine - when I forced him to swim. But absolutely no interest in food. I was giving prazipro out of caution, thinking maybe an internal parasite since he wasn’t eating. Then he started swimming weird and darting all over the tank and eventually died. He was a big chalk bass, so I assumed maybe it was just old. While that was in at another fish just disappeared (an anthias). No clue if it had the same behaviors, but in 2 years of the hobby, I’ve never had a fish disappear. Then the third fish (chalk bass) followed the same progression. I didn’t pull him this time thinking maybe that shortened the first fish’s life. Then the fourth fish (an anthias) went Mia yesterday. Wasn’t breathing weird. Gills were fine. I mentioned to a friend about 2 weeks ago, who has been in the hobby for about a decade) whether he thought the fish looked okay cause it wasn’t eating mysis but seemed mildly interested in the flake food. The friend watched it for a while and said it looked perfectly healthy and that I was being paranoid. The fish continued to not eat and has disappeared. I have no clue if it died or has found a really good hiding spot like the first chalk bass did. I have another fish (an anthias as well) that’s not hiding, but has started spitting out food and I’m concerned it will continue along the same path. He’s my last anthias. So I doubt it could be a pecking order thing.

As I’ve researched it, I’ve found that there’s a good chance these fish are often caught with cyanide and that the symptoms align well with cyanide capture of fish. I’m just wondering if anyone can think of anything else that would cause those symptoms. If the current fish continues on this path, I will likely pull it so I can do a necropsy when it eventually dies. I probably should have with the first fish. I did try scraping it scales, and looking under the microscope, but didn’t see anything of concern. I really assumed it was just an old fish. And eventually old fish die.

 

[Bleigh]

Aquarium Parameters:
Aquarium type: Reef,
Aquarium water volume: ~70 between sump and dt
Filtration type: sock, fuge, skimmer, pentair up sterlizer run slower for parasites.
Lighting: radion xr15 gen 4
How long has the aquarium been established? 18 months
Digital image of the aquarium under white light:

Water quality (be sure to indicate what measurement units you are using)
Temperature: 78. Apex and digital
pH: ~8-8.1 apex
Salinity / specific gravity 1.025 refractometer and apex
Ammonia 0 Red Sea
Nitrite 0 Red Sea
Nitrate 25 salifert
Phosphorus .06 after converted from ppb Hannah
Copper - no test for, but haven’t used
Other: icp testing from about 3 weeks ago showed nothing majorly off. Just slightly low in iodine and a few other trace elements.

In-depth information:
Have you lost any fish to this problem yet? (see below) yes
Are any invertebrates affected? No
Respiration rate of affected fish (in gill beats per minutes, count for 15 seconds and multiply by 4): anthias I’m currently concerned about is 48
Are the affected fish still feeding? Ish. She has started spitting out food, but is also taking some in
What remedies have you tried so far? Prazipro, different food
Digital image of the fish with the health issue, taken under white light

Short video of the fish (linked YouTube videos work well) it’s uploading now. I’ll post when it’s ready.

 

[shred5]

I doubt it was cyanide poisoning. Chalk bass are Caribbean and probably came in from a United states collector.
I just lost 3 Chalk bass too. I have never lost one before after receiving them though. Very hardy fish.
Difference mine seemed to eat till pretty close to the end but were hiding all of a sudden a few days after getting them. They were bold and doing fine the first few days. i had other fish in the order and they are all fine.
They died in quarantine. One had some spots on their fins and it was not ich.
Where did you get the chalk bass?

​

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

I am no expert on disease but should like the exact behavior and progression as I see in Cichlids, Malawi Bloat (internal parasites). Sometimes they get a sunken belly but sometimes it happens so quickly they just stop eating one day and the next they are belly up. Metro and Focus can be used in the display but essentially useless if they are not eating.

 

[Bleigh]

I doubt it was cyanide poisoning. Chalk bass are Caribbean and probably came in from a United states collector.
I just lost 3 Chalk bass too. I have never lost one before after receiving them though. Very hardy fish.
Difference mine seemed to eat till pretty close to the end but were hiding all of a sudden a few days after getting them. They were bold and doing fine the first few days. i had other fish in the order and they are all fine.
They died in quarantine. One had some spots on their fins and it was not ich.
Where did you get the chalk bass?

​

Yeah. I’ve had all these fish since October 27th of 2019. So a little over a year. They’ve been completely healthy. Honestly, If I didn’t enjoy watching my tank that much, I doubt I would have noticed tale tale signs that they were acting differently. I added the last fish at least 6 months ago. Maybe longer. I have added new corals.

 

[Bleigh]

I am no expert on disease but should like the exact behavior and progression as I see in Cichlids, Malawi Bloat (internal parasites). Sometimes they get a sunken belly but sometimes it happens so quickly they just stop eating one day and the next they are belly up. Metro and Focus can be used in the display but essentially useless if they are not eating.

This is taking a long time. Like, weeks. I imagine this fish will die, but in a few weeks. I just barely noticed slight differences in behavior. does the yawn thing in the video, I’m surprised I caught that cause she doesn’t do that often.

I have both metro and focus, so I’ll try it to see.

So sad to lose pets. Especially when everything seems fine.

 

[Bleigh]

@ReefSquad or #reefsquad any ideas?

 

[Billldg]

@Jay Hemdal , any ideas or opinions?

 

[windemerejack]

Could be way off but any spray or air freshener, laundry detergent, anything like that, might be airborne and is slowly killing the fish, or putting hands in the tank after doing laundry or washing up or spraying something.
Anything at all like that getting into tank somehow without you realising or noticing?

 

[Bleigh]

@Jay Hemdal , any ideas or opinions?

I was going to tag him on the next step. He must be getting 100’s of tags a day. Any time or thoughts would surely be appreciated @Jay Hemdal

 

[Bleigh]

Could be way off but any spray or air freshener, laundry detergent, anything like that, might be airborne and is slowly killing the fish, or putting hands in the tank after doing laundry or washing up or spraying something.
Anything at all like that getting into tank somehow without you realising or noticing?

I mean it’s always possible. But I’m pretty paranoid. I don’t even use scented soap before putting my hands in. Only dawn. I also run some carbon just in case. Wouldn’t that be all at once like over night and not just the fish I got at the same time - and one by one? Maybe not but I’m not sure. The first fish I probably
Lost 6-8 weeks ago. And I truly thought maybe he just stopped eating cause he was so old. It was a BIG chalk bass. He never looked bad. Never lost color and the scale scraping didn’t show anything under the microscope. I probably should have done a necropsy. But I thought it may have been overkill at that point and I had no reason to believe the other fish would start doing it too. I have not recovered any of the other fish that have gone missing. So it may also be possible that the first fish was a red herring and something is actually eating the fish in the tank. That just occurred to me too.

 

[windemerejack]

Its just something to eliminate, i find it so difficult to find out why a fish died, most times i end up never knowing.

 

[GlassMunky]

I’m doubtful that both your chalk bass and anthias have cyanide poisoning, since chalk bass are Atlantic and anthias are pacific.

 

[Bleigh]

Its just something to eliminate, i find it so difficult to find out why a fish died, most times i end up never knowing.

For sure! I would have asked the same question. LOL it’s weird. Especially considering they’re looking amazing. Only hiding some and not very interested in food. Which was super obvious for my chalk bass, cause they were pigs before. Not as obvious with the anthias. My tank looks so empty right now. It makes me sad.

 

[Bleigh]

I’m doubtful that both your chalk bass and anthias have cyanide poisoning, since chalk bass are Atlantic and anthias are pacific.

Any ideas of what else may be going on? Or could the deaths be completely unrelated?

 

[GlassMunky]

Its just something to eliminate, i find it so difficult to find out why a fish died, most times i end up never knowing.

Without sampling the dead fish, all we ever do is just “guess” and never really have an answer.

 

[GlassMunky]

Any ideas of what else may be going on? Or could the deaths be completely unrelated?

I would think they are unrelated. Especially being so old and having multiple fish added at different times so the same thing.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Aquarium Parameters:
Aquarium type: Reef,
Aquarium water volume: ~70 between sump and dt
Filtration type: sock, fuge, skimmer, pentair up sterlizer run slower for parasites.
Lighting: radion xr15 gen 4
How long has the aquarium been established? 18 months
Digital image of the aquarium under white light:

Water quality (be sure to indicate what measurement units you are using)
Temperature: 78. Apex and digital
pH: ~8-8.1 apex
Salinity / specific gravity 1.025 refractometer and apex
Ammonia 0 Red Sea
Nitrite 0 Red Sea
Nitrate 25 salifert
Phosphorus .06 after converted from ppb Hannah
Copper - no test for, but haven’t used
Other: icp testing from about 3 weeks ago showed nothing majorly off. Just slightly low in iodine and a few other trace elements.

In-depth information:
Have you lost any fish to this problem yet? (see below) yes
Are any invertebrates affected? No
Respiration rate of affected fish (in gill beats per minutes, count for 15 seconds and multiply by 4): anthias I’m currently concerned about is 48
Are the affected fish still feeding? Ish. She has started spitting out food, but is also taking some in
What remedies have you tried so far? Prazipro, different food
Digital image of the fish with the health issue, taken under white light

Short video of the fish (linked YouTube videos work well) it’s uploading now. I’ll post when it’s ready.

Best problem report ever posted! You crossed all your tees and dotted all the I's - thanks!

As others have said, this isn't cyanide poisoning. That will show up within around 45 days of importation, and only in fish from affected areas (Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam and Eritrea). The chalk bass probably came from Haiti. They don't use cyanide there, but they handle the fish very poorly, and it is very common to lose chalk bass, but again, you would see that in the fist 45 days.

I do not see anything wrong with the anthias in the video - fat little porker! He is spitting out his food because he is full. The tank itself is fine, so is the tang and goby.

I don't think it is any sort of external poisoning - the invertebrates would be affected first, or at least at the same time. Also, poisoning is almost always an acute event, the problem happens and loss is immediate and swift. It simply does not cause long drawn out fish loss.

It isn't "old age", that would only affect really old fish, like the big chalk bass. I've had squamipinnis Anthias live for close to a decade.

So - why did you lose fish? I see two possibilities: undiagnosed fish aggression, where a perpetrator is taking the other fish out over time. Don't expect to actually see much aggression - often, while you are watching for it, the fish are all on good behavior, and are busy watching you. You typically would see some fin damage though. That leaves Mycobacterium marinum. Fish tuberculosis. It usually causes chronic fish loss, mostly in older fish. Myco is found in every aquarium, and you cannot treat for it. Under some (unknown) circumstances, it turns virulent and you start losing older fish. That said, there are usually symptoms seen with that: popeye, pinched belly, poor appetite, poor coloration.

Aside from that, I'm stumped!


Jay

 

[Bleigh]

I would think they are unrelated. Especially being so old and having multiple fish added at different times so the same thing.

I was just reading about life spans. The most recent disappearance had been male for most of the time he’s been in my tank. if it’s true that they don’t change to male until after 2 years, the. He must have been 3-4, which would put all the fish near the end of their life expectancy.

I hate that their life spans are so short. I’m not sure if it would be safe to assume it’s just age for all of them and add more fish or wait it out a bit longer. To see if anything else manifests.

 

[Bleigh]

Best problem report ever posted! You crossed all your tees and dotted all the I's - thanks!

As others have said, this isn't cyanide poisoning. That will show up within around 45 days of importation, and only in fish from affected areas (Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam and Eritrea). The chalk bass probably came from Haiti. They don't use cyanide there, but they handle the fish very poorly, and it is very common to lose chalk bass, but again, you would see that in the fist 45 days.

I do not see anything wrong with the anthias in the video - fat little porker! He is spitting out his food because he is full. The tank itself is fine, so is the tang and goby.

I don't think it is any sort of external poisoning - the invertebrates would be affected first, or at least at the same time. Also, poisoning is almost always an acute event, the problem happens and loss is immediate and swift. It simply does not cause long drawn out fish loss.

It isn't "old age", that would only affect really old fish, like the big chalk bass. I've had squamipinnis Anthias live for close to a decade.

So - why did you lose fish? I see two possibilities: undiagnosed fish aggression, where a perpetrator is taking the other fish out over time. Don't expect to actually see much aggression - often, while you are watching for it, the fish are all on good behavior, and are busy watching you. You typically would see some fin damage though. That leaves Mycobacterium marinum. Fish tuberculosis. It usually causes chronic fish loss, mostly in older fish. Myco is found in every aquarium, and you cannot treat for it. Under some (unknown) circumstances, it turns virulent and you start losing older fish. That said, there are usually symptoms seen with that: popeye, pinched belly, poor appetite, poor coloration.

Aside from that, I'm stumped!


Jay

LOL. Thanks for the accolades. I did my best.

Your response is equally as detailed. There’s no fin damage at all. The smallest anthias is the one that’s left. If it were aggression, I’d imagine that she’d be the first gone. My clown fish and 6 line got their own home probably 9 months ago cause they were being so obnoxious to all the fish. So it could only be the yellow tang or the goby doing it. My plan was to upgrade the yellow tang to a bigger tank around this time. I guess he could be getting territorial over the space. He normally schools with the other fish though. He reminds me of a dog. He begs for food like my dog does. LOL

All the fish that I’m losing have to be pretty old at this point. Is there a way for mto culture anything to check for the mycobacterium marinum? Or is there something to look for during a necropsy if another fish dies?

I’ll make sure to keep taking videos of this fish in case she disappears too.

I did read where someone had an octopus hitchhiker that was taking out fish. I doubt that would make them lose their appetite, so I kind of feel like a fish eating hitchhiker is an unlikely cause too.

How long should I wait for fish tuberculosis to run its course and start replacing them?