Cycle question

[ZombieEngineer]

@dieselgoose

please will you post a simple pic of your whole tank

from that pic we can see if it looks like an animal with no kidney function, or if it looks like one heck of a predictably normal happy animal

the chief signal of old cycling science is when someone tries to sell a peer on symptomless ammonia poisoning in sensitive respiring creatures.

just one pic ‘ll be fine. The pic is about to line up with Randy’s info above for the non toxic range, and so would any seneye reading. All the hoopla comes from non seneye owners…seneye owners just sit back and smile during ammonia burn debates.

Zombie, you’re trying to sell us on dangerous ammonia levels as stated by an nh4 relay on a non digital kit among healthy fish and clean water and days of feed and plenty of surface area (every reef tank cycle)

it’s easy to write nope x3 staring at 150 completed cycles with happy fish and seneye passed inspections, any entrant can be sent a message for confirmation.

why is it I’m not seeing an equal cycle thread using other peoples outcomes as a comparison post? On what basis can someone disagree with my patterns without their own linked up clearly for inspection?



the post I’m making here is for the readers studying this thread; I would never expect an adherent of old cycling science to agree with me until they own a seneye. I expect heels dug in, and relays of fear that will never match the actual tank picture. For pages

I understand part of the issue is that English is obviously your second language so some things are getting missed, but I don't understand how you say 0.5ppm is in Randy's safe ranges when he states at anything above 0.1ppm TOTAL ammonia is cause for concern and above 0.25 ppm is dangerous and might even merit removing fish.

If there is something new I have never seen in my decade of reefing and cycling 6 tanks, I'm all for new information, but it kinda feels like you're just trying to be a salesman for Seneye.

@dieselgoose. Apologies for kinda hijacking this into a back and forth between Brandon. I am genuinely confused as hell by what he is trying to say.

 

[dieselgoose]

I ordered a Hannah nitrate tester from Amazon also so I will be able to get a better reading tomorrow. Just curious is Hannah the recommendation for testing?

 

[ZombieEngineer]

I ordered a Hannah nitrate tester from Amazon also so I will be able to get a better reading tomorrow. Just curious is Hannah the recommendation for testing?

I got one recently myself because I didn't believe by expired red sea was correct telling me my nitrates were zero. Hanna confirmed this and also calibrated perfectly to nitrate standard solution.

I really like the Hanna. Just make sure to get the High Range one. That version is only one step. The low range one is way too many steps that I wouldn't bother doing.

 

[dieselgoose]

I got one recently myself because I didn't believe by expired red sea was correct telling me my nitrates were zero. Hanna confirmed this and also calibrated perfectly to nitrate standard solution.

I really like the Hanna. Just make sure to get the High Range one. That version is only one step. The low range one is way too many steps that I wouldn't bother doing.

This one?

 

[ZombieEngineer]

This one?

Yes. That one is the good one.

 

[brandon429]

The reason cycle science is so worth hashing out is because millions of dollars of animal life hangs in the balance of ideal procedure, entire markets are shifted based on what the public believes, such fascinating pull.


Honing cycling science into the exact date one can forget about the cycle and focus all intent on fish disease prep is the way of the future. Reef convention sellers with instant reefs that never miss a start date and never crash coming to or going home from the convention are the hidden jewel of what's possible in cycle prediction and control. Only forum cyclers and buyers stumble, the sellers never do= creates a sales flow gradient.


The cycling science that buyers use is polar opposite to the science sellers use. Reef conventions align 350 full reefs all by a Friday start date; both live rock transfers and bottle bac skip cycles are found at any reef convention. ask forum cycle umpires if it's possible to know the readiness date for a tank before its built- resounding no. You must wait open ended and anything sooner than 30 days is dangerous.


In the link Erin said no no no, we directly assign a start date for any reef factoring no test kit readings for 30+ months... using sellers science. The exact safe start date for adding fish here was day one because fritz tested #1 on massive work threads. After day three you can do huge water changes if needed and the filter bacteria are locked in place. Nice nitrate kit above

 

[ZombieEngineer]

@brandon429 Vendors at reef expos put massive amounts of bottled bacteria and ammonia reducing media that they know has been properly stored and handled as well as rock that they know for certain does not have any contaminants just to get through a weekend with minimal losses. For them losses are an economic calculation that they would like to avoid, but if it costs them more in time or materials than they reduced their losses its worth having a few fish die from ammonia levels.

Hobbyists often get dry rock used that hasn't been properly cleaned of organics, may still have traces of bleach from attempts to remove organics, sand that often wasn't washed, very often will see the price tag on bottled bacteria and say "the one for up to 50 gallons should be good enough for 75 gallons" and have low accuracy test kits because it is nearly worthless to test for ammonia once your reef is mature. Any one of those things is enough to take a bottled bacteria cycle from perfectly safe to needs emergency water change immediately and possibly losing fish too.

There are also other issues like dinoflaggelate blooms that can be extremely toxic to fish if they are allowed to propogate and most beginner aquarists don't know how to identify or treat them. I have had these occur in every cycle that started with used dry rock. It's much better for these things to pop up before you have a $200 pair of designer clowns in the tank.

A much better route that sets you up better for long term success is to get the tank setup, seed with bottled bacteria and/or material from an established tank and "feed" it with ammonia chloride or fish food while you quarantine your fish. Medicated or at minimum observational Quarantine is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY if you value keeping your tank ich and velvet free and shouldn't be done in your display tank. If you need to QT your fish for 14-30 days anyway why not make sure your tank is cycled before the fish ever enter?

 

[brandon429]

It’s a fair request for you to base all captioning on patterns demonstrated or not


cycling is so predictable that in thirty pages of straight cycles we don’t have loss, in just one thread. There’s multiple threads to see the same cycle pattern over and over: complete.


their test kits were never factored, we use consistent number of days waited to solve for the ammonia control ability using a cycling chart. Inoculation plus water plus feed = in ten days you can do a water change and the filter will remain full power, ten days wait.

we need to see times that failed, just one will do. One example


we can reference a cycling chart to set the start date for any reef worth carrying a hundred thousand dollars in marine life… without testing. We do it all day long in work threads.

I am genuinely interested to see examples of a failed cycle from any reader now or in the future.

while hunting for failed cycle examples, don’t forget bad acclimation losses we can’t just pin any fish death on a cycle fail..show one on a seneye and I’ll pay a decent PayPal bounty to see it.

Impress me, we’ll negotiate by chat. Someone owning a seneye add any Dr Tims cycle-specific bacteria or Fritz or biospira and a common cycle food source

wait ten days stewing

change some water, have sand in the tank like everyone does-you’re cycled. someone with a seneye show me that failing (unable to quickly oxidize incremental test load ammonia) in a calibrated nh3 unit and I’ll pay you a decent bounty for the data.


Other factors are in play for bottles killed in shipping:

dilution is biggest cushion factor, two clowns isn’t overpowering anyone’s cycle. Two clowns is also no where near 2 ppm loading that’s an absolutely unneeded amount of ammonia to add, we show for thirty pages.

alternate inoculation sources for filter bacteria/ compound import or filter communities contribute filter ability (such as any degree of common cured live rock)

live fish are direct vectors of filter bacteria into new systems, sloughing of the slime coat: rafting. Completely dead bottles of water bacteria in water are rare not common. There’s room transfer of marine-tolerant heterotrophs in addition to it all. Ten days of compounding: complete. nobody cares what nitrite and nitrate read nowaday…the real pro effort folks run fallow and quarantine protocols for all their fish stocked.



I’m willing to pay a bounty on seeing the first real documented failed cycle on a seneye or hach meter on a full size complete dry start reef, not a scale model. Someone post the proof, send me a chat we evaluate based on quality of the test proof offered.

but if all we get is a perfectly normal reef pic tomorrow, then

 

[ZombieEngineer]

Took 10 seconds to find a literal sh**ton

One example

Cycling with fish = fish died why??

Hi Everyone, I tried the fish to cycle my tank and the fish died. 5gal tank Day 1 live sand and dried rock Day 2 let it sit Day 3 added turbo 900 and a firefish Day 4 fish dead -All levels 0 My only thoughts are that the heater has been erratic and found that it went from 78 to 82 even...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

you're just trying to be a salesman for Seneye.

BINGO!

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

In the link Erin said no no no

I said this because I'm tired of you hijacking threads to post the same thing over and over and over... We get it. You do things differently. Say it once and then let it be! Six of the 31 posts in this thread are from you, saying the same thing and linking to your other threads. ONE would have been sufficient!

 

[brandon429]

When the picture comes tomorrow

we will have your predictions and mine to evaluate.

 

[Spare time]

I'm pretty sure the OP's test looks like it may be 0.5 but is actually 0 since most people who have not used api ammonia tests extensively in person have trouble telling what a 0 looks like. The reason why I say its likely 0 is that there is no nitrite. People seem to forget that bacteria which converts nitrite to nitrate is slower growing than that which converts ammonia to nitrite. If you have actual ammonia readings on a test kit (0.25, 0.5, etc.), you should loigcally have nitrite present, unless something specifically killed off the ammonia->nitrite bacteria and not the more sensitive nitrite->nitrate bacteria (which is extremely unlikely). Since OP reports 0 nitrite, I believe the error is the OP's interpretation of the API ammonia test.

 

[brandon429]

Zombie that was a shortcut search and post

you took first search return, didn’t remark on prior patterns, and didn’t bother to even engage them to guide some discovery in the thread, zero effort. Short cut to work. You didn’t make any discovery that rules out diseased fish or bad acclimation

we post work threads using other peoples tanks, multiple examples ran with specific dates and accountability for live time outcome.


a single two second first return search post does not constitute a pattern of logged tank outcomes. Make your case for cycle fail, show us nh4 readings.

the thread can’t be claimed to be hijacked if tomorrows pic is normal, happy reef. This is exactly why chat- only cycle work is best in forums, results do the convincing work. Everyone gets along in chat, nobody feels slighted.



the tank pic will decide.

 

[dieselgoose]

I understand part of the issue is that English is obviously your second language so some things are getting missed, but I don't understand how you say 0.5ppm is in Randy's safe ranges when he states at anything above 0.1ppm TOTAL ammonia is cause for concern and above 0.25 ppm is dangerous and might even merit removing fish.

If there is something new I have never seen in my decade of reefing and cycling 6 tanks, I'm all for new information, but it kinda feels like you're just trying to be a salesman for Seneye.

@dieselgoose. Apologies for kinda hijacking this into a back and forth between Brandon. I am genuinely confused as hell by what he is trying to say.

no worries, im learning either way lol

 

[ZombieEngineer]

I'm pretty sure the OP's test looks like it may be 0.5 but is actually 0 since most people who have not used api ammonia tests extensively in person have trouble telling what a 0 looks like.

This is definately a possibility. The bubbles can make it pretty hard to distinguish.

 

[Spare time]

This is definately a possibility. The bubbles can make it pretty hard to distinguish.

Plus there can be some precipitation occuring in the vial which can alter the appearence

 

[dieselgoose]

Here is the tank

 

[brandon429]

Thank you for following up dieselgoose

It's perfect. That is massive surface area indeed. If the fish were burnt by ammonia they'd be hovering at the top gasping for air with injured gills, especially during the night phase.

The reason that picture looks great and the fish eat and swim normally is because they're happy, not burned, and people who sell bottle bac designed it to work that way. Thank you for follow up.

 

[dieselgoose]

I’m going to take a sample of water to the LFS later today just to be on the safe side. I know I’m not alone in saying this dang thing just makes me nervous as hell as far as keeping my water right to not kill anything.