Cycling

[brandon429]

Without the bottle bac it would be a bit of a quick start since only half his rock is live…but anyone who studies live rock transfer cycles (aka every reef convention full reef ever made for thirty years set up in one day, not seven, no the cycles dont expire they are skip cycles) knows that live rock component (the brown ones not the painted liferock) can carry the same degree of fish he might choose now, or in two months of careful wait and feed


his bottle bacteria equated him with fifty thousand other bottle bac cyclers who carry fish day one, with no wait, and violate all fish disease protocol heh

hes at the disease protocol selection phase. His assigned ready date came from a constellation of factors beyond this one thread. Assigning clear specific start dates for bioload carry vs open ended arbitrary start dates is the heart of updated cycling science. His posted test levels mean nothing, they’re unverified api. A set of horse shoes aimed at parameter target stakes fifteen paces out is sharper.

 

[Soren]

Without the bottle bac it would be a bit of a quick start since only half his rock is live…but anyone who studies live rock transfer cycles (aka every reef convention full reef ever made for thirty years set up in one day, not seven, no the cycles dont expire they are skip cycles) knows that live rock component (the brown ones not the painted liferock) can carry the same degree of fish he might choose now, or in two months of careful wait and feed


his bottle bacteria equated him with fifty thousand other bottle bac cyclers who carry fish day one, with no wait, and violate all fish disease protocol heh

hes at the disease protocol selection phase. His assigned ready date came from a constellation of factors beyond this one thread. Assigning clear specific start dates for bioload carry vs open ended arbitrary start dates is the heart of updated cycling science. His posted test levels mean nothing, they’re unverified api. A set of horse shoes aimed at parameter target stakes fifteen paces out is sharper.

The fact that ammonia has been dosed here already should mean that @Steven27 should wait until the ammonia is converted before adding fish, right? If not, please help my understand why it is good advice for a beginner to add fish to a tank with "high" ammonia from dosing. This is independent of whether or not nitrite also is measured to reduction.

Do you not find the very low levels of nitrate concerning? Without evidence of full cycling conversion, how can such an assertive level of certainty be applied?

It may work to add bottle bacteria and fish day 1 since the fish are the ammonia source (probably fairly small amounts added, unless full bioload of fish is added day 1) and the bacteria from the bottle are enough to convert the relatively small amount of ammonia.

If ammonia is dosed, it seems easier to me to better measure how many fish can be added since it is essentially a measure of the bacteria populations indirectly rather than just assuming that bacteria is there just because it is. It is a safeguard to help eliminate variability between setups and different people with different levels of understanding.

Science of the real world seems more complicated than the exact timeline that is constantly purported. Is this timeline exactly predictable always no matter what size the aquarium is, no matter how much rock/sand/decor/substrate etc. is used, no matter how many fish are added, no matter the source of bacteria, no matter the ammonia source, no matter what any tests say (i.e. all tests are completely unreliable and always false?)? I'm trying to understand here if there are any limitations?

I still consider it extremely pompous and fool-hardy to throw out all past history and recommend that a beginner just make an immediate decision that puts life at risk while tests seem to indicate caution. I have respect for you and your experience, @brandon429 , and appreciate your willingness to question methods, but it becomes hard to maintain the respect when you come forth with such assertiveness against so much of the information of this entire hobby. Things can change over time, but it is rare that all previous understanding should be cast out.

If this makes me an armchair warrior, so be it. My experience is still fairly limited, so I don't have lots of research to back up my thoughts other than leaning upon others.

The one thing I "learn" over and over again is that the "best" way for my opinion to be heard is to state my opinions with assertive surety, throw aspersions on my opposition, claim other people's experiences and threads as part of my "work", redirect discussion to avoid ever addressing counterpoints, claim a position of authority, and avoid using the quote or tagging functions (which would make the discussion too coherent or easy to follow).

Please take this right, @brandon429 . I don't intend this as a personal slam, but I think (from my own personal armchair opinion) that you should consider your presentation after the fact that so many of your conversations follow this same trail enough that you make a general disparagement to all in your signature assuming no one else is capable of presenting an argument and backing it up. To quote your signature: "likelihood: we're having a discussion on why you should let me clean your reef or cycle it. or, am asking for work links to fortify a critique and getting none."

What happens too often in this hobby according to my inexperienced view is that too much risk is taken due to lack of understanding and too much life is lost due to lack of caution.

Sorry, @Steven27 that this came out in your thread, but I've seen this similar trend often enough that I finally feel compelled to say something...

 

[Steven27]

I'm not sure how big of an issue it is, but it is usually not recommended to combine different brands of bottled bacteria to initially get a tank cycling due to competition between different bacteria strains. Though ultimately the bacteria will compete and will still become established, it may be possible that it causes a delay. I'm just going from memory, but I am pretty sure all bottle bacteria brands, including Dr. Tim's specifically, recommend not to combine with other bacteria.

The worst likely outcome for you now that you already used more than one bacteria source is just that it may take a bit longer to initially reach a point where the bacteria populations stabilize and your tank is cycling to convert ammonia at a fast enough pace to equate to desired bioload.

Sorry if any of this seems over-wordy or confusing. I try to avoid over-explaining while also including all information I think is pertinent. Just ask if you want clarification on anything I said as well as getting information and advice from the others here, as I will not claim to know everything.

I only used one bottle of bacteria instant ocean bio spira. I appreciate any feedback still learning!

 

[Soren]

I only used one bottle of bacteria instant ocean bio spira. I appreciate any feedback still learning!

Oh, so you dosed Bio Spira and are following Dr. Tim's cycling protocol? I misread your first post that it is only Dr. Tim's ammonia chloride that you added, not also Dr. Tim's nitrifying bacteria.
No matter what bacteria was dosed at this point, you can confirm that your tank is ready for the first fish by measuring a reduction in ammonia down to at least 0.25 or lower measuring with API and this reduction occurs in 24 hours or less. I believe this is exactly according to the recommendations by Dr. Tim and possibly others. You should also be able to detect rising nitrates, since the ammonia is converted to nitrites which are converted to nitrates. Whether or not you measure nitrites (I see you already are), the reduction of nitrites to nitrates indicates a seamless cycling and indicates that the bacteria can handle bioload.

Understand this clearly. Any nitrifying bacteria will eventually reduce ammonia to nitrites and nitrites to nitrates if the proper bacteria are present. By measuring how fast the reduction occurs, you can confirm nitrifying bacteria population levels, since little bacteria will take longer to both consume the ammonia and to increase in population while established significant populations will consume the ammonia quickly. This is the distinction for safety why I recommend measuring the time for ammonia reduction, especially if you plan to add very many fish within any relatively short period of time. This is my basic understanding after reading through reference books and online references. I could be wrong since I am neither a chemist nor a biologist.

 

[Steven27]

Oh, so you dosed Bio Spira and are following Dr. Tim's cycling protocol? I misread your first post that it is only Dr. Tim's ammonia chloride that you added, not also Dr. Tim's nitrifying bacteria.
No matter what bacteria was dosed at this point, you can confirm that your tank is ready for the first fish by measuring a reduction in ammonia down to at least 0.25 or lower measuring with API and this reduction occurs in 24 hours or less. I believe this is exactly according to the recommendations by Dr. Tim and possibly others. You should also be able to detect rising nitrates, since the ammonia is converted to nitrites which are converted to nitrates. Whether or not you measure nitrites (I see you already are), the reduction of nitrites to nitrates indicates a seamless cycling and indicates that the bacteria can handle bioload.

Understand this clearly. Any nitrifying bacteria will eventually reduce ammonia to nitrites and nitrites to nitrates if the proper bacteria are present. By measuring how fast the reduction occurs, you can confirm nitrifying bacteria population levels, since little bacteria will take longer to both consume the ammonia and to increase in population while established significant populations will consume the ammonia quickly. This is the distinction for safety why I recommend measuring the time for ammonia reduction, especially if you plan to add very many fish within any relatively short period of time. This is my basic understanding after reading through reference books and online references. I could be wrong since I am neither a chemist nor a biologist.

Okay yes that’s what I was thinking your essentially watching to see how quickly the ammonia drops. Okay I really appreciate the feedback! So no more ammonia until the current levels clear then add a little bit to see how quickly it’s processed?

 

[Soren]

Okay yes that’s what I was thinking your essentially watching to see how quickly the ammonia drops. Okay I really appreciate the feedback! So no more ammonia until the current levels clear then add a little bit to see how quickly it’s processed?

Do you know how much ammonia you added and when you added it? Adding only a little bit later does not tell much unless you test often to see more or less exactly when it is reduced to determine ammonia consumption rate. It is typically easier to add a certain amount, such as 1 ppm, and measure to ensure that it is reduced within 24 hours by testing 24 hours after adding ammonia.

I still think that, unless you measure high ammonia and extremely low nitrates after about 24 hours from your last ammonia addition, your tank will be cycling enough for first fish additions after ammonia reduces to .25 or less.

 

[Steven27]

Do you know how much ammonia you added and when you added it? Adding only a little bit later does not tell much unless you test often to see more or less exactly when it is reduced to determine ammonia consumption rate. It is typically easier to add a certain amount, such as 1 ppm, and measure to ensure that it is reduced within 24 hours by testing 24 hours after adding ammonia.

I still think that, unless you measure high ammonia and extremely low nitrates after about 24 hours from your last ammonia addition, your tank will be cycling enough for first fish additions after ammonia reduces to .25 or less.

I added 76 drops the instructions said 4 drops per gallon and the tank is 29 gallons so minus the 20 percent and the actual size being I believe 25 gallons. I believe it was at 2 ppm yesterday. Off topic questions but once it’s time to start adding to the tank how deep of a sand bed is required for a cuc such as hermit crab?

 

[Soren]

I added 76 drops the instructions said 4 drops per gallon and the tank is 29 gallons so minus the 20 percent and the actual size being I believe 25 gallons. I believe it was at 2 ppm yesterday. Off topic questions but once it’s time to start adding to the tank how deep of a sand bed is required for a cuc such as hermit crab?

Only dropping from 2 ppm to 1 ppm in 24 hours (assuming you took your posted test results around noon today) and the lack of almost any nitrates is a bad indicator to me, though you could still add a few fish after ammonia drops to 0.25 and probably be fine (as long as you don't add several fish or many "larger" fish). The recommended 2 ppm reduced in 24 hours is supposed to be a measure to indicate capacity for the bacteria to handle full fish bioload for that size of tank, assuming I understand correctly. Reduction of 1 ppm ammonia in 24 hours indicates a fair bacteria population, so adding fish slowly after ammonia drops to 0.25 ppm or lower is likely a safe option.

I don't think most clean-up-crew need sand unless they are sand sifters or tunnel into the sand bed, such as sand-sifting starfish (probably not recommended for you) or nassarius snails.

Don't you already have a 1" sand bed or more? (based on what I saw in pictures from your other threads)
That should be fine for the average clean-up-crew.

 

[Steven27]

Only dropping from 2 ppm to 1 ppm in 24 hours (assuming you took your posted test results around noon today) and the lack of almost any nitrates is a bad indicator to me, though you could still add a few fish after ammonia drops to 0.25 and probably be fine (as long as you don't add several fish or many "larger" fish). The recommended 2 ppm reduced in 24 hours is supposed to be a measure to indicate capacity for the bacteria to handle full fish bioload for that size of tank, assuming I understand correctly. Reduction of 1 ppm ammonia in 24 hours indicates a fair bacteria population, so adding fish slowly after ammonia drops to 0.25 ppm or lower is likely a safe option.

I don't think most clean-up-crew need sand unless they are sand sifters or tunnel into the sand bed, such as sand-sifting starfish (probably not recommended for you) or nassarius snails.

Don't you already have a 1" sand bed or more? (based on what I saw in pictures from your other threads)
That should be fine for the average clean-up-crew.

Okay that makes sense! I believe my sand bed is below an inch I added a 20 pound bag of sand for a 29 gallon tank. Okay sounds good the picture of the tank is from Monday and the ammonia test is from yesterday.

 

[Soren]

Okay that makes sense! I believe my sand bed is below an inch I added a 20 pound bag of sand for a 29 gallon tank. Okay sounds good the picture of the tank is from Monday and the ammonia test is from yesterday.

That looks good to me. I'd wait until ammonia drops to 0.25 ppm or below, then start adding fish 1-2 at a time with a 1-2 week delay between additions (which won't be many for a 29-gallon tank, especially if you add any in pairs, such as 2 clownfish).

...and, as someone recommended on your other thread, lowering the heater as low as possible is a good safeguard to prevent burn-out or shattering if the water level drops. I'm not sure if you've already done this or not.

 

[Steven27]

That looks good to me. I'd wait until ammonia drops to 0.25 ppm or below, then start adding fish 1-2 at a time with a 1-2 week delay between additions (which won't be many for a 29-gallon tank, especially if you add any in pairs, such as 2 clownfish).

...and, as someone recommended on your other thread, lowering the heater as low as possible is a good safeguard to prevent burn-out or shattering if the water level drops. I'm not sure if you've already done this or not.

I’ll lower it! Okay so my stocking plan is 2 clown fish, royal gramma and a neon blue goby. So the clown fish should be added last?

 

[Soren]

I’ll lower it! Okay so my stocking plan is 2 clown fish, royal gramma and a neon blue goby. So the clown fish should be added last?

Other than adding the neon blue goby first, I don't think it will matter much whether you add the royal gramma or clownfish pair first. I'd probably add the clownfish last, though, just to possibly avoid aggression issues.

Also, though it may work, it might be a bad idea to add an anemone for the clownfish (I don't know if this is your plan or not) while having a neon goby in there as well. I know it works in some circumstances, but I think tiny gobies can easily disappear in an anemone.

 

[Steven27]

Other than adding the neon blue goby first, I don't think it will matter much whether you add the royal gramma or clownfish pair first. I'd probably add the clownfish last, though, just to possibly avoid aggression issues.

Also, though it may work, it might be a bad idea to add an anemone for the clownfish (I don't know if this is your plan or not) while having a neon goby in there as well. I know it works in some circumstances, but I think tiny gobies can easily disappear in an anemone.

No anemone. Okay sounds good I’ll probably add the neon blue goby and royal gramma first.

 

[Steven27]

Ammonia, nitrites and nitrate levels it’s been almost 48 hours since I dosed ammonia The last picture was 6 hours after I dosed ammonia on Wednesday!

 

[Little c big D]

It appears you've processed the ammonia. And now the nitrite is processing into nitrate. Progress. A .25 reading of ammonia on api is typically false and is 0

 

[Steven27]

It appears you've processed the ammonia. And now the nitrite is processing into nitrate. Progress. A .25 reading of ammonia on api is typically false and is 0

How quickly should the bacteria process the ammonia I believe it was at 2 ppm originally?

 

[brandon429]

Soren

advising people to add untreated no disease prep fish into a reef is bad advice.

it’s ok if you want to take over cycle threads and impose non specific wait times, no definite start date, that doesn’t harm anything it’s just following in line with old cycling rules we don’t use any longer in threads that assign specific start dates and then measure outcomes.


you need to make sure you don’t contribute to the massive degree of loss that is directing folks to instantly inoculate a display tank with disease vectors.


as I read this thread I see cycle doubt where there is none, and I see avoidance of all disease preps. this kills fish.

we won’t need to see 24 pages of reefs getting an exact assigned start date like this one was given, once someone is bent on relaying old cycling science they rarely give way. it wouldn’t matter if two hundred reefs can be shown with feedback on specific start dates assigned, those with no work links don’t care about making or discovering proof patterns they deal in snippet info relay only.


this reef should not add blennies or anything unprepped for disease, we can see in a ten minute read how this plays out in the fish disease forum and especially as someone’s absolute first foray into owning saltwater fish. Those need disease preps most of all.


change your water for new so there’s less algae fuel

add corals and a clean up crew enjoy them learn basic reef control while reading the fish disease forum five hours of self educated study Steven

add fish appropriate for your reef, your surface area, prepped for disease in the ways you’ve read months from now (you need to fallow a live rock start system, you saw this in disease forum reads). This tank has been ran and advised on the pure doubt pure fear mode, how the in the world does anyone think fish are ready here. We put fish in a resolved controlled prepped practiced setup.

His cycle is done, he’s not ready to make use of it fully though. Only for corals and a clean up crew.

 

[Little c big D]

How quickly should the bacteria process the ammonia I believe it was at 2 ppm originally?

I think 24 hours is the target time, however the load you plan with, I think it was 3 fish? Could be supported easily. My opinion is you're ready for them. However I'm not sure if you plan to qt prior or not. There's alot of different options on that front to pick from. I did not qt personally, but results vary and the level of risk is up to you. Pick what works best for you. Check out the fish disease section

 

[Little c big D]

Soren

advising people to add untreated no disease prep fish into a reef is bad advice.

it’s ok if you want to take over cycle threads and impose non specific wait times, no definite start date, that doesn’t harm anything it’s just following in line with old cycling rules we don’t use any longer in threads that assign specific start dates and then measure outcomes.


you need to make sure you don’t contribute to the massive degree of loss that is directing folks to instantly inoculate a display tank with disease vectors.


as I read this thread I see cycle doubt where there is none, and I see avoidance of all disease preps. this kills fish.

I generally agree with qt on a tank but this is a small stock list with very hardy fish. Could go either way here. [Again not advice, op has to choose best for their situation] knowledge is important here and understanding all the risks.

 

[brandon429]

I know fish are coming into this reef next week bc that’s how long api will take to clear a multiple dose too high of ammonia. And when fish are added despite clear direction, this will make a fine post to track out for March outcomes, reminder set. What the umpires arrange here will be neat to see. Getting to see if initially added fish are the same ones present in March will be good for pattern assessment.