Dana, when to dose Amino Acids and Vitamins ???

xiaoxiy · Feb 7, 2018

Dana Riddle said:
Thanks for the reference! A quick look of the results states AA uptake by the Stylo occurred in light when the concentration exceeded 0.5 micromole/L but did not in a Pocillopora - a vexing observation. As for the light intensity, they used a 4-pi sensor while almost all other researchers use a 2-pi, hence the PPFD measurement includes upwelling light which could be substantial if the substrate is highly reflective. I state this only because I wouldn't want anyone to run with the idea that uptake occurs at a moderate light intensity, one found in many aquaria, when in fact we could guess that uptake actually occurs at a substantially lower intensity (as measured with a 2-pi 'hobby grade' meter.) Thanks again!

Do you mind explaining the 4-pi versus 2-pi sensor?

From what I gathered from the results, at 3uM/L of DFAA, increasing light intensities (when comparing 0, 160 and 300 PAR) seemed to drastically increase DFAA uptake. Thus, at least for Stylophora, dosing DFAA during the day would lead to higher uptake rates than during the night.

Dana Riddle · Feb 7, 2018

xiaoxiy said:
Do you mind explaining the 4-pi versus 2-pi sensor?

From what I gathered from the results, at 3uM/L of DFAA, increasing light intensities (when comparing 0, 160 and 300 PAR) seemed to drastically increase DFAA uptake. Thus, at least for Stylophora, dosing DFAA during the day would lead to higher uptake rates than during the night.

Yes, that's what I got too - uptake was higher for the Stylophora in lighted conditions when the AA concentration exceeded the threshold of 0.5 micromole, so, yup, we're on the same page. As for the 2-pi v. 4-pi sensors - a 2-pi collects light only from that falling upon it from the top (or in the case of a cosine corrected sensor, from the top and the sides.) A 4-pi collects light from all directions - they are usually shaped like a light bulb. There is some controversy about which is best for work with corals. Some say the 4-pi is best only for microalgae where light can be absorbed from all sides, while others state that light is bounced off the coral skeleton and back through the tissues, so this counts as upwelling light. It's a good point, but I've only seen one 4-pi sensor actually used in work with corals - this was Pete Mohan at SeaWorld Ohio back in the 90's. Since practically all use a 2-pi it is probably best to stick with those. It allows for comparisons without worrying about sensor design and how to interpret results.

xiaoxiy · Feb 8, 2018

Dana Riddle said:
Yes, that's what I got too - uptake was higher for the Stylophora in lighted conditions when the AA concentration exceeded the threshold of 0.5 micromole, so, yup, we're on the same page. As for the 2-pi v. 4-pi sensors - a 2-pi collects light only from that falling upon it from the top (or in the case of a cosine corrected sensor, from the top and the sides.) A 4-pi collects light from all directions - they are usually shaped like a light bulb. There is some controversy about which is best for work with corals. Some say the 4-pi is best only for microalgae where light can be absorbed from all sides, while others state that light is bounced off the coral skeleton and back through the tissues, so this counts as upwelling light. It's a good point, but I've only seen one 4-pi sensor actually used in work with corals - this was Pete Mohan at SeaWorld Ohio back in the 90's. Since practically all use a 2-pi it is probably best to stick with those. It allows for comparisons without worrying about sensor design and how to interpret results.

Thanks for explaining the differences of the 4 and 2 pi sensors!

Diesel · Feb 8, 2018

Dana Riddle said:
Add threonine to the list. At one point, I charted he amino acid content of every fluorescent protein I could find. Sadly, long lost. I did find my three reference books on the subject (they were stilled packed in the moving boxes.) Let me take a good look when I get the chance. It will be good for me to review since I've decided that coral coloration will the subject of the MACNA presentation. I usually don't reveal publically what the project will be until just before the conference, but after assembling all the equipment and realizing how much work it'll be, I don't think I have to worry about someone stealing my thunder. I've got to find some colorful Acros and quick, but all the shops near by either don't have or want a small fortune for a tiny frag. Some, if not all, of the colony will have to be sacrificed to the coral gods to get usable info...

Now we know what the subject will be in LV you will pull a full house, like it or not, who doesn't like colors

Dana Riddle · Feb 8, 2018

Diesel said:
Now we know what the subject will be in LV you will pull a full house, like it or not, who doesn't like colors

I'm not feeling any pressure... no siree... not one tiny bit.

Diesel · Feb 9, 2018

Dana Riddle said:
I'm not feeling any pressure... no siree... not one tiny bit.

Oh don't worry Dana, it's just Las Vegas all bets are on you!
Feeling the pressure Sir

PSXerholic · Feb 13, 2018

BigJohnny said:
How'd you get that? He said they absorb amino acids in low/no light, and the advanced aquarist article said at night.

Lol, maybe a brain fart or misunderstanding in translation, however I try to summarize my thoughts on what @Dana Riddle wrote concerning dosing night/day.
However, in the meantime I started dosing AA & Vitmamins. AA in the evening when the skimmer is programmed to run on 50% (I hope this helps to keep AA's longer before it gets skimmed out since my skimmer barely produces skimmate at 50% but aerates the tank) and the Vitamins I do around lunch time, even if the AA supplement has also additional vitamins in it. I run maybe too much Vitamins. The reason I deviated from my intention to dose AA in the day was that the fact that all the algae will love to see the AA, may cause a bigger problem on the long run.

Anyways here the thought why I think AA dosing during the day makes sense to me.

Quote Dana:
If you choose to add AAs, there is some evidence that uptake by corals is higher in low/no light.
ANDRE's Brain: Means during light phase still means absorption in tissue.....maybe not as effective....

Here's why: At least some corals can produce all, or most, AAs they require but the products translocated from zooxanthellate are required for AA synthesis. Hence, when zoox are not receiving enough/any light this process slows/stops.
ANDRE's Brain: Means the tissue need light to translocate...I want to supply AA when the translocation is going to happen, at the photosynthesis?! Maybe.. if understood correctly.

It is then that AAs are absorbed.
ANDRE's Brain: Don't get that, ignore this. Might mean consumed and converted to proteins.(for unfolding)

Algae are known to make many vitamins as well. This concept caused a minor stir in the hobby when George Smit published it in FAMA back in the late '80s, but a little thought bears out his position (production of Vitamin C by plants is an obvious example.) I'm not sure of vitamin production by zoox or any other algae commonly kept (Chaeto, Caulerpa, etc.) but I will make an assumption that vitamin absorption follows the lines of AAs.
ANDRE's Brain: Will have to test. Benefit of providing Vitamins in the night will be more efficient on the uptake (if the same as on AA, uptake under low light better) and as soon Vitamins are in the coral, they should be stored in the Coral prior oxidizing in the water as it happens with Vitamin C according to Thiel and to my ORP probe ;-)

Feel free to chime in ;-)

BigJohnny · Feb 13, 2018

PSXerholic said:
Here's why: At least some corals can produce all, or most, AAs they require but the products translocated from zooxanthellate are required for AA synthesis. Hence, when zoox are not receiving enough/any light this process slows/stops.
ANDRE's Brain: Means the tissue need light to translocate...I want to supply AA when the translocation is going to happen, at the photosynthesis?! Maybe.. if understood correctly.

You misunderstood this actually. They need the products translocated from zooxanthellate to synthesize aminos, not they need photosynthesis to translocate aminos.

In my opinion the best time to dose aminos is an hour or two before your lights come on so the corals absorb them in preperation for the day. Theoretically this is when they would have the least available (assuming they use up most of what they synthesize during the day at night) and since it's dark/low light they would absorb more as well. Just my 2 cents

PSXerholic · Feb 13, 2018

BigJohnny said:
You misunderstood this actually. They need the products translocated from zooxanthellate to synthesize aminos, not they need photosynthesis to translocate aminos.

In my opinion the best time to dose aminos is an hour or two before your lights come on so the corals absorb them in preperation for the day. Theoretically this is when they would have the least available (assuming they use up most of what they synthesize during the day at night) and since it's dark/low light they would absorb more as well. Just my 2 cents

Thank you !
Well.... I really like the idea of an energetic breakfast !!! Haven't thought about that option.

xiaoxiy · Feb 13, 2018

This is my anecdotal experience. Based on the paper that I linked previously in the thread, I dose daily (acropora 4ml, reef energy A 4ml, reef energy B 4ml) right as my lights ramp up. Similar to Psxerholic though, my skimmer is programmed to turn off for 2 hours after I dose. Of note, I also feed 5ml of cultured yeast and 2 scoops of reef chili daily with the amino acids as well.

Again, I know this is anecdotal evidence, but I'm pretty happy with my growth rates and coloration. Here's the growth of two corals over the course of 6 days. First image set is Feb 3rd, Second image set is Feb 9th.

Diesel · Feb 13, 2018

Why not just AA's first and hold off on the Vit's for a month?
IMO with step by step and take a slow you get close to the results if not better than that Diesel guy

Than again what do I know

We're born to do that what can't be done.
Do what you can't.

Any comments........

PSXerholic · Feb 14, 2018

Diesel said:
Why not just AA's first and hold off on the Vit's for a month?
IMO with step by step and take a slow you get close to the results if not better than that Diesel guy
Than again what do I know

We're born to do that what can't be done.
Do what you can't.

Any comments........

You are right, I also feel I take this thing too fast.
With the skimmer in half duty during the night, this is already a big change in nutrient biology.
Don't want to inflame a Coral flu with all these superior bacteria foods ;-)

Will leave the Vitamins away and do 80% of the recommended dose of Amino/Carb combo daily.
By the way Ben, that stuff looks really like juice ;-)

Diesel · Feb 14, 2018

PSXerholic said:
You are right, I also feel I take this thing too fast.
With the skimmer in half duty during the night, this is already a big change in nutrient biology.
Don't want to inflame a Coral flu with all these superior bacteria foods ;-)

Will leave the Vitamins away and do 80% of the recommended dose of Amino/Carb combo daily.
By the way Ben, that stuff looks really like juice ;-)

Don't know what you talking about