Deep sand beds. Who still uses them?

[Thespammailaccount]

Fairly new reefer but gravitate away from chemical forms of filtration. Currently I employ a refugium and macro reactor. I am intriguing with the concept of a deep sand bed. Pros? Cons?

 

[brandon429]

Read this to see a five year evaluation of them across tanks, lemme know standout patterns you see

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

sandbed advice comes in two forms


-that which is formed from keeping a tank in ones home

-that which comes from asking the public to send you all their sandbed problems in one thread / patterns that result



theres the work. We asked for examples of home moves, invasion fixes, tank swaps etc. we knew that eventually all sandbeds have to be accessed, how to do that without losing a single tank has repeating patterns.


all sandbeds do well on the upswing of the bell curve


how to stop the curve or make your tank behave on the downslope is inside


if sandbeds managed themselves by and large, we wouldnt need any of that thread. #inb4Berliners


diving wrasses and gobies and all sorts of balances can help turn over substrates and reduce our work. we try to include the full range of posted options, many people using busy fish get a bed nearly as clean as our hard work + water change storms.

 

[Thespammailaccount]

Read this to see a five year evaluation of them across tanks, lemme know standout patterns you see

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

sandbed advice comes in two forms


-that which is formed from keeping a tank in ones home

-that which comes from asking the public to send you all their sandbed problems in one thread / patterns that result



theres the work. We asked for examples of home moves, invasion fixes, tank swaps etc. we knew that eventually all sandbeds have to be accessed, how to do that without losing a single tank has repeating patterns.


all sandbeds do well on the upswing of the bell curve


how to stop the curve or make your tank behave on the downslope is inside


if sandbeds managed themselves by and large, we wouldnt need any of that thread. #inb4Berliners


diving wrasses and gobies and all sorts of balances can help turn over substrates and reduce our work. we try to include the full range of posted options, many people using busy fish get a bed nearly as clean as our hard work + water change storms.

It is this line right here that has me so intrigued “...it’s a fifteen year undisturbed reason [...] the rare nitrate reducing sandbed, the goal of every sandbed for most keepers.”

What makes it rare or how can I achieve the goal of a deep sand bed?

If I do not move the tank ensure rock work will not move and have backup power that kicks on if there were a power outage can I eliminate crash? Am I missing anything?

 

[brandon429]

this is my honest take on the matter: its the remote deep sand beds in buckets plumbed before the display that get the most consistency on performing the way you want

the ones up under tons of fish loading vary so much we have to do crazy stuff to make 40 out of 40 tanks behave. but those bucket remote ones are ideal/untouched, and not loaded with detritus every day 24x7

every entrant in our thread was an attempt of a classic performing dsb in a display tank, out of these thousands of posts I feel best stating the remote ones/slower input might really be doing true measurable denitrification. add a sandbed to a plumbed 5 gallon paint bucket done creatively/flow tank water across it to the display tank.

there are tanks that added sand in the classic way, stacked rocks and got low nitrates but its just not the majority. in dealing with patterns and more than one tank we see sandbeds are mainly detritus traps unless planned and balanced carefully.

*a large tank with a tiny fish load, and dsb in the display, meets arrangements as well but usually large tanks get swarms of fish and ride the bell curve hands off for years but one unlucky turn in that time + sandbed waste = all the work we're addressing.

 

[Thespammailaccount]

this is my honest take on the matter: its the remote deep sand beds in buckets plumbed before the display that get the most consistency on performing the way you want

the ones up under tons of fish loading vary so much we have to do crazy stuff to make 40 out of 40 tanks behave. but those bucket remote ones are ideal/untouched, and not loaded with detritus every day 24x7

every entrant in our thread was an attempt of a classic performing dsb in a display tank, out of these thousands of posts I feel best stating the remote ones/slower input might really be doing true measurable denitrification. add a sandbed to a plumbed 5 gallon paint bucket done creatively/flow tank water across it to the display tank.

Although I see the safety factor by employing a remote deep sand bed but can a five gallon bucket really provide enough surface area for significant denitrification?

My current tank the 70 gallon runs mostly on micro with nitrates at 2 and phos at 0.8.

I have a dry deep tank that would allow for a deep sand bed but currently just playing around with the idea if not I will just stick with micro and live rock as the filter

 

[SDK]

I would agree with Brandon on this. I've been reefing 40+ years and went through about every DSB methodology as new techniques arose.

I eventually settled on the Berlin System and had a lot of long term success.

After a break from the hobby, I returned and went bare bottom in a Berlin "Systemish" AIO. It was started with cured live rock. The tank is doing great, and I have escaped many of the issues that are recurring themes here.

I am now just about to stock a larger system with a full sump. I have elected to continue with the bare bottom, but have added a remote DSB to the refugium. It consists of about 75% live gulf sand and rock rubble from Salty Bottom Reef, and a 25% mix of dry sand and dry/cured rock. My CUC is arriving today and I will let it run an additional month or two before transferring everything over from the AIO.

I spent a lot of time planning this out, both to be properly matured and have a ton of biological diversity before transferring my livestock over. The remote DSB will be easier to care for, and I expect the switch to be smooth sailing...

The short story is that if you want to have the best chance to avoid chemical use, I would recommend not starting with dry, sterile rock. Add a DSB only with care and a solid maintenance plan. Especially to a new system...

 

[Thespammailaccount]

Pic of current tank. I am more of a coral than fish person. If I went with a large tank with many corals and just a few fish would this increase the success of the DSB or is coral waste cause a problem like waste from too many fish?

 

[SDK]

Although I see the safety factor by employing a remote deep sand bed but can a five gallon bucket really provide enough surface area for significant denitrification?

I would say yes, along with a proper amount of cured live rock and proper management. The AIO I mentioned in my above post has no sand or refugium, and I have to feed generously to keep NO3 at 5....

 

[Thespammailaccount]

This is the tank I was thinking about trying a BSB but now might sell for the size of tank I would want for years and in a different location if I do decide to try a BSB

 

[Miller535]

If you are really interested in a DSB I would suggest reading Ron Shimek's article on DSB. http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html. I'll argue no one knows more about DSB's them him. With that said, most reefers have had problems with them. In the article he even talk about surface area and why remote refugiums do not work for the purpose of DSB's. Personally, I would HIGHLY recommend anyone to NOT do a DSB. Even when they did work, when Ron wrote this, there were not very many effective methods of nutrient export. That is not true anymore. So I do not find it necessary, and the risk's far out way the benefits when there are other methods that don't pose these risk.

 

[Thespammailaccount]

I would agree with Brandon on this. I've been reefing 40+ years and went through about every DSB methodology as new techniques arose.

I eventually settled on the Berlin System and had a lot of long term success.

After I break from the hobby, I returned and went bare bottom in a Berlin "Systemish" AIO. It was started with cured live rock. The tank is doing great, and I have escaped many of the issues that are recurring themes here.

I am now just about to stock a larger system with a full sump. I have elected to continue with the bare bottom, but have added a remote DSB to the refugium. It consists of about 75% live gulf sand and rock rubble from Salty Bottom reef mixed with a 25% mix of dry sand and dry an cured rock. My CUC is arriving today and I will let it run a further month or two before transferring everything over from the AIO.

I spent a lot of time planning this out, both to be properly matured and have a ton of biological diversity before transferring my livestock over. The remote DSB will be easier to care for, I expect it to be smooth sailing...

The short story is that if you want to have the best chance to avoid chemical use, I would recommend not starting with dry, sterile rock. Add a DSB only with care and a solid maintenance plan. Especially to a new system...

I read about adding a DSB to the refugium and was think about trying it but then I was reading were some suggested against it since a lot of detritus settles in the refugium area and eventually overwhelm the BSB

 

[Miller535]

Also according to Ron, what most people call a DSB is NOT a DSB.

 

[Miller535]

I read about adding a DSB to the refugium and was think about trying it but then I was reading were some suggested against it since a lot of detritus settles in the refugium area and eventually overwhelm the BSB

That is not true. A functioning DSB relies on critters to consume a lot of the detritus. Ron talks about constantly adding these critters on a regular basis. Another reason why many fail, because they do not want to keep adding them

 

[Thespammailaccount]

Also according to Ron, what most people call a DSB is NOT a DSB.

Sugar fine and six inches at least for good measure?

 

[Miller535]

Sugar fine and six inches at least for good measure?

In the article Ron describes a layer method. With several layers of different sized sand.

 

[SDK]

I read about adding a DSB to the refugium and was think about trying it but then I was reading were some suggested against it since a lot of detritus settles in the refugium area and eventually overwhelm the BSB

I'm not running mine as a true DSB to be cultivated and never disturbed. I gave up on those years ago for a more proactive approach. The sand is in my refugium to foster some biological diversity that the bare bottom display won't support. It will be regularly cleaned and maintained with the rest of the tank.

I tend to err on the side of being cleaner and quick to react to issues, and it has worked well for me over the years...

 

[Thespammailaccount]

In the article Ron describes a layer method. With several layers of different sized sand.

This is interesting and will be reading these articles. Do you happen to know before I start reading if this method was empirically tested and if so was their longevity with the method?

 

[Miller535]

This is interesting and will be reading these articles. Do you happen to know before I start reading if this method was empirically tested and if so was their longevity with the method?

At least at the time of the article Dr. Shimek used this and had done a lot of testing of this method. And at least at the time of the article had been doing it for years. I would argue that he is in the top 5 most knowledgeable and respected people for their knowledge and the articles and info they put out.

 

[NS Mike D]

I think think a DSB has it's merits, I wouldn't recommend it to a "fairly new reefer".

Non-chemcial filtration, especially protein skimmers, rotating marine pure blocks in the sump & macro algae system to name a few have gotten so efficient, we now see a trend in threads on adding NO3 and PO4 into tanks, and dino/cyano threads where low nutrients are at the root cause (as opposed to the more common to high nutrients being the issue).

I 100% agree that cured live rock (rock that is covered with coraline and bacteria but cleaned of the dead organics) gives the new reefer a much better start than dry and other forms of rock).

 

[GeoSquid]

Ron Shimek's Website...Deep Sand Beds

Dr Ron Shimek's Website - Information on animal groups, husbandry of coral reef aquarium animals, his passion for native Montana orchids, Ron's blog and online articles

www.ronshimek.com