Deep Sand Filtration

[Derek121]

I've stumbled upon a massive debate in some threads about deep sand filtration as being your source of filtration as well as not running a protein skimmer.

I have a chance to purchase a beautiful rimless 26 gallon tank with a 10 gallon sump that is running deep sand filtration.

It comes with two clown fish (which is fine with me)
It comes with new current usa orbit led light which I have looked at many great reviews.
I would be looking to grow corals and would love shrimp, crabs, and snails. With deep sand filtration does it defeat the purpose to have sand sifters?

If someone can please give me their two cents. I am low on experience but eager to learn and I am (possibly) going to pick this tank up tomorrow.
Two photos attached and dimensions are- 30/16/13
Does anyone notice any issues I may run into

 

[Downbeach]

This has been a very controversial subject, and usually results in a food fight, but I've kept DSB's successfully in all my tanks for many years, the last one for 17. Although I started out without a skimmer, eventually, as my bio load increased, I added one and as I added SPS, I also added GFO and BP's. I would suggest that you read the attached articles, and strictly follow the principals in Dr. Shimek's writting. Along with the type/size/depth of the substrate, you will notice that its important to avoid any sand sifting animals that will prey on the microfauna that keep the DSB healthy. Here is some reading, starting with Dr. Shimek's article:

http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/eb/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/nftt/index.php
http://www.reefersquest.com/showthread.php?149-The-Deep-sand-bed

 

[jackson6745]

With a DSB you get added biological surface area, anaerobic area to denitrify water, and unfortunately an area to store a load of organics and po4. With a DSB you are eventually fighting a battle against leeching nutrients from the sandbed. Aesthetically I think it looks messy as well. No amount of microfauna is keeping that wet turd of a sandbed free of nutrient. I vote nay

 

[brandon429]

A classic old debate and both ways have success tanks

But if we pore over threads for problem tanks how many are bare bottom? Try to go through the first ten pages of the general reef discussion forum here, and look for tanks with cyano problems and eutrophication

All of them have sand? To me it means the masses that choose dsb run them wrong, and stack too much poopy bioload up top. We like fish and fish waste too much to do them right or the trouble threads wouldn't be 100% me trying to sell people on removing pent up waste without a recycle. I don't have to do or say that on bb tanks

I will always have a six inch dsb in my tank. And it will be waste free always, so it's like not having one too. The hands off dsb technique isn't transferable to the masses without constant invader problems although many individual tanks run them long term. The entire biology of the tank in question changes when you move it, the waste upwelling begins a heckuva chain of events for the re set up.

Problems also arise when example threads are for large tanks and not nanos, who concentrate and sink waste faster. Larger tanks have easier time with hands off. Poster azdesertrat also has a decade + dsb but it's in huge reef, better dilution than the above. For the first year or two your dsb choice isn't likely to matter.

 

[Derek121]

I wanted to say thank you to you three for taking the time to answer my questions. While I thought this tank was beautiful, I have decided not to purchase it.

After researching DSB filtration further I would have to say that I agree with the philosophy and think it's an amazing and natural approach.

The reasoning why I have decided not to get this tank is because I want the sand sifters in my tank. I love watching crabs, shrimp, and snails and while they appear in the natural world with DSB, they are not acceptable for aquarium set ups with DSB. I am also thinking that this tank did not have the recommended 4-6 inches of sand. Thank you for your help!

 

[Downbeach]

There are many snails, shrimp, etc. that you can keep with a DSB, I always had Nassarius Vibrex, Cerith snails, and a couple Conch's in my sand bed. I also had three different types of ornamental shrimp, i.e. Skunk, Blood and Coral Banded. The primary "sand sifters" you should avoid are certain types of Gobies(Genus Valenciennea), sand sifting sea stars, etc.

 

[jetmaker]

There are many snails, shrimp, etc. that you can keep with a DSB, I always had Nassarius Vibrex, Cerith snails, and a couple Conch's in my sand bed. I also had three different types of ornamental shrimp, i.e. Skunk, Blood and Coral Banded. The primary "sand sifters" you should avoid are certain types of Gobies(Genus Valenciennea), sand sifting sea stars, etc.

+1

 

[Tru REEF]

If u like it and want it for what it does and not the looks i suggest run it in the sump a decent size refuge. The best of both words got the good filtration it has without 1-2 thirds of the tank full of sand.

 

[jetmaker]

I run a dsb with plenty snail's and crabs with no problems the key to a dsb is to not clean it yourself.

 

[jackson6745]

For the DSB advocates, what are you trying to accomplish with the DSB? Denitrification? Sandbed biodiversity (and burrowing fish+critters)? Reason why I ask is because there are so many better ways to denitrify your reef, unless you enjoy the DSB for the life it can carry I don't see the need for one.

 

[cmcoker]

Just wanted to say, if you like that tank you don't have to run it the same way.
You can throw away the current sand and get new sand to your desired depth. I would do that either way because the sand bed would be disturbed in the move and release whatever organics it is storing. There is enough live rock to keep your beneficial bacteria going, throw Ammonia alert badge on there and grab a bottle of prime just in case.

 

[brandon429]

I probably come off as anti dsb not so, just slanted in a certain way about not storing waste. every intention of the good balanced dsb isn't some form of internal waste reduction that saves us work while we get to ignore waste export and stack bioloads on top, raining down...its a balance between animals and waste incursion if its really balanced in the aquarium long term.


somehow, the successful long term dsb keeper is preventing waste incursion, helping slow or prevent it in some way, or they've stocked with light bioloading inputs, or they may have some helpful dilutions to add to both

for me to me impressed about a long term dsb, I have to see certain planning details regarding changes from the norm. the norm is, put in dsb put in many fish, never clean dsb, evaluate in 4 years as successful storage/processing of waste, but secretly you can't scoop a handful up and dump it back down into the tank with an ammonia incident. If a keeper has lower than avg fish bioload, and some preemptive exports before the bed sinks up to the core, then im all ears/ if they actually have the fauna in question (most sandbeds are a few brittle stars, and detritus) that too also shows unique design.

 

[brandon429]

regarding denitrification-neat fact

if you go through this whole board and look at ATS users uptaking nitrate from strong feedings with their algae filters, that's in addition to being a dsb tank as well. Same for carbon dosers, refugium keepers, sulfur coil denitrators, 99% of these setups are in addition to sandbedded tanks that were supposed to be helping, not pumping nitrate.

Its not that dsb's are bad, its that we want them to do unreasonable things by and large.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

For the DSB advocates, what are you trying to accomplish with the DSB? Denitrification? Sandbed biodiversity (and burrowing fish+critters)? Reason why I ask is because there are so many better ways to denitrify your reef, unless you enjoy the DSB for the life it can carry I don't see the need for one.

its just one choice. Read up on Ron Shimeck.
And better is gonna require some proof. Other is a better wording.

Edit; a dsb also house a large particulate "filter" so the 10,000 tiny arms also take the large particle food an poop directly off of the sand bed.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Id like to point out there is not a DSB in that tank.

The reasoning why I have decided not to get this tank is because I want the sand sifters in my tank. I love watching crabs, shrimp, and snails and while they appear in the natural world with DSB, they are not acceptable for aquarium set ups with DSB. I am also thinking that this tank did not have the recommended 4-6 inches of sand. Thank you for your help!

and yes you can have sand sifters and diggers. I do. so they are not acceptable for aquarium set ups with DSB. is not true.
Part of the success of a dsb is waterflow through it. you need animals to make holes. or you can borrow the stick i use.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

regarding denitrification-neat fact

if you go through this whole board and look at ATS users uptaking nitrate from strong feedings with their algae filters, that's in addition to being a dsb tank as well. Same for carbon dosers, refugium keepers, sulfur coil denitrators, 99% of these setups are in addition to sandbedded tanks that were supposed to be helping, not pumping nitrate.

Its not that dsb's are bad, its that we want them to do unreasonable things by and large.

and a DSB is not 4 in of sugar sand. it should be Olite to make it mud. I just add the pretty stuff on the top to keep the dust down.
Keep looking at DSB in others reefs online. You will see this mistake constantly.

 

[brandon429]

im for any arrangement that is not poop in, store, avoid




my own dsb is mega fine grain, to keep the waste focused up top for removal and not sink it in.

 

[WetWhistle]

This topic can defiantly opens a can of worms and the below comments are based on my experience and opinion based on it over my years in this hobby.

You can successfully keep a tank both with and without a DSB. I myself prefer at least some substrate in my tanks if I choose not to use a DSB. You don't need to add a DSB into the main tank if you have a sump you can add it into this or another attached tank. DSB if properly maintained lasts for years and years with no issues. It is when they are not maintained properly they become a nutrient sink. Two different scenarios altogether when using a DSB.

Based on my experience long term with DSB. I have been running mine in my sump for 20+ years now. I have had no issues ever over the years caused by it and it is still super productive. As the years pass it got more efficient actually at processing waste. If DSB were destined to always cause issues it would have done so by now. The fact some people think DSB is always going to be a nutrient sink and will cause issues down the road is total nonsense in my opinion. Especially when it has been properly maintained. Maintain it and it will reward you. If you get lazy and don't it will bite you in the butt and will probably cause problems. If you did get lazy it was your fault not the beds that it caused issues as most people know it should be maintained. Because if it is not maintained it can cause some nutrient problems. In actuality people are more likely to cause more issues to their tank then a maintained DSB will in the end.

I like the natural approach so substrate fits in very well for me. Based on my experience with and without DSB as I have tested both long term. People that don't run their system with substrate or a DSB have nowhere near the stable system I have by using it. The amount of food web produced, the ability of processing of waste and the added buffer capacity the DSB provides my tank far out weight any possible\ alleged nutrient problems. As an added bonus I have noticed the caulerpa that I grow in the substrate produces the effect of an increased immune system in my fish as well as increased colors. As they eat an army of live nutritious foods from my sump. My system with substrate\ DSB easily produces the clean up crews needed to handle any algae issues as it will bloom quickly when nutrients increase. I rarely experience an algae bloom unless I did something dumb to cause it so suffice to say I don't get them often. I can add a large amount of livestock into my system and barley see an increase in algae growth or nutrients. My substrate\ DSB does so well I stopped running a skimmer on my SPS dominant system because I don't want to run a ULNS on my tank as it is to finicky for my taste. Remember by not using substrate it is inert so it doesn't add anything to the tank or have any of the before mentioned benefits so it can't do anything except let things get blown up into the water column for quick removal.

In the end OP it comes down to what people like and what style they are going for when setting up their reef.

 

[brandon429]

These threads are numerous online lol agreed, the passion between this and what salt brand to use, or UV/no UV, are top three endless preference debates.

I agree with what you wrote if we maintain distinction between larger and smaller setups

if anything has been done in nanos scaled enough draw conclusions its been done since 2001 and can be found for patterns
We have the max lifespan sandbed examples handy for almost any size nano one wants to review, and the sum total is different takeaway than that of sandbeds for larger, older tanks. They tend to do harm in nanos if left sinking...the oldest examples assist the sandbed or forego it

even one of the longest living large tanks one can use as an example, has a sandbed that specifically ejects waste...the assisting part above (Paul B)

agreed on the large tank aspect, using sandbeds in reefs is a 30 yr+ practice
as long as we're talking plenty of dilution, I agree the hands off mode has an establishment in the hobby in practice.

 

[WetWhistle]

Ya nano's kind of makeup their own rules when keeping them for the most part. For me I have a 'nano' tank as well but I attached a 65 gallon sump to it with a DSB in it with mangroves growing in it. So technically it is not a nano anymore but the main tank is. lol I got around any possible issue by putting the DSB in plastic bins so if I run into issues I can easily take it out without disturbing to much. This way I get the benefit of a DSB but can deal if anything bad came out of it. I still get to do my hands off approach on my smaller tank. Win win I say.