Delicate / Difficult Wrasse

[Magellan]

Just here to try and learn more about wrasses...from reading this thread it seems obvious that shipping is a major concern. The method of capture may or may not be, and there is absolutely no way of knowing how that happened unless you physically dove into the ocean and caught it yourself.

If people in Australia don’t have issues keeping them, but reefers on the other side of the ocean do, it seems that the principle of Occam’s Razor applies...the simplest solution is most often correct. It’s the shipping. Just my .02

 

[griff500]

I used have a Twistii Anampses, had it for 3 years until I had to sell it since I was moving to college. Only anampses I was able to get locally. I don't mess with these wrasses when it comes to shipping. Wholesalers told me it's not worth getting them online, I trust them since I have seen dozens of them dead at shipment unboxings. I haven't been able to find another one locally that was healthy. But I do have Macropharyngodon and Psuedojuloides species, which do have the same issues.

And I have a Twistii that's doing great, along with a Black Tail and a Yellow Tail Anampses, also doing great. Red Tail and Femininus... so far not so good, but I've only tried once of each. Obviously they died simply due to a lack of research and not because they are inherently more difficult, right?

I say definitely because if it was because shipping damage, it would be hiding in the sand for a long time to recover from the damages. If it was going to die, it would swim out of the sand and just hyperventilate to death. Yours was out and happy and eating. For over a week. Then it suddenly died. That's why I said definitely it was internal parasites.

And you still cannot say with certainty and yet you are doing so. Even worse, you are suggesting that a Femininus Wrasse would have probably survived if only I had done some research, yet it is a notoriously difficult fish. I take it from your responses that you have not actually kept one successfully.

 

[griff500]

Just here to try learn more about wrasses...from reading this thread it seems obvious that shipping is a major concern. The method of capture may or may not be, and there is absolutely no way of knowing how that happened unless you physically dove into the ocean and caught it yourself.

If people in Australia don’t have issues keeping them, but reefers on the other side of the ocean do, it seems that the principle of Occam’s Razor applies...the simplest solution is most often correct. It’s the shipping. Just my .02

It seems an entirely reasonable conclusion. As mentioned earlier, I'm sure I remember reading somewhere about someone shipping differently for sand-dwelling fish but I can't quite be bothered at this time of night to track down those comments online.

 

[Earl Karl]

But it's not a notoriously difficult fish... I have been to Australia and seen many tanks with Anampses, including the feminus, and told that they're not difficult at all. It's not that they're more difficult here in the US, most of them just never had a chance of living because of shipment stress and damage. If we had anampses at our coasts, there would be no "difficulty" of keeping them.

I literally told you why I know it was internal parasites, wdym I cannot say with certainty? I'll say it again:
I say definitely because if it was because of shipping damage, or any damage, it would be hiding in the sand for a long time to recover from the damages. If it was going to die from that, it would swim out of the sand and just hyperventilate to death. Yours was out and happy and eating. For over a week. Then it suddenly died. That's why I said definitely it was internal parasites. Same with your red tail. The other anampses you have aren't much less "difficult" than the ones that perished on you.

 

[Earl Karl]

Actually, from what I am told from other people, but I am not certain since I have no experience, the Femininus species is actually more hardier when it comes to shipping them. Therefore the high price. Same with Lennardi. Lennardi and Femininus are actually the hardier species according to people that keeps them.

It's also the fact that the ones who collect them are a pain in the rear to deal with, beauty, and the fact they ship better contributes to the overall price. According to a wholesaler I know.

 

[Lasse]

I think that you can exclude the internal parasites here at least for a death in 10 days. I did ask about the QT because with all other things with stress and so on - they normally not go well with prophylactic treatment and QT. Why you can exclude internal parasites - because there is to different (and opposite to each other) things that can happens when a fish have internal parasites. Either it does not eat at all and die rather soon or it is eating a lot but do not gain weight and it takes months before it dies of malnutrition. I have never seen a fish eating good and suddenly (without being skinny) die of internal parasites.

To guess it die because of internal parasites is for me the same as guess that the capture methods are the cause - just guesses. But the accumulated stress because of long shipping and so on can be a reason that it did not manage it.

What I understand - you have at least three more wrasses species - are you 100 % sure that there has been no bulling taking place - I have seen my wrasses and newcomers.......

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Earl Karl]

I think that you can exclude the internal parasites here at least for a death in 10 days. I did ask about the QT because with all other things with stress and so on - they normally not go well with prophylactic treatment and QT. Why you can exclude internal parasites - because there is to different (and opposite to each other) things that can happens when a fish have internal parasites. Either it does not eat at all and die rather soon or it is eating a lot but do not gain weight and it takes months before it dies of malnutrition. I have never seen a fish eating good and suddenly (without being skinny) die of internal parasites.

To guess it die because of internal parasites is for me the same as guess that the capture methods are the cause - just guesses. But the accumulated stress because of long shipping and so on can be a reason that it did not manage it.

What I understand - you have at least three more wrasses species - are you 100 % sure that there has been no bulling taking place - I have seen my wrasses and newcomers.......

Sincerely Lasse

Actually I disagree. With worms it's different, which are rampant in wrasses like Anampses. Worms actually make the fish look more bloated, could be very well look like it was fat and happy. Plus the quick death could be because the source that had them, had them for a long time before they shipped it.

It's like cats. When cats have internal worms, they actually look more bloated until you deworm them.

 

[Magellan]

Actually I disagree. With worms it's different, which are rampant in wrasses like Anampses. Worms actually make the fish look more bloated, could be very well look like it was fat and happy.

It's like cats. When cats have internal worms, they actually look more bloated until you deworm them.

Without an autopsy, it seems like a stretch to say that it was “definitely” parasites. The fish was eating and happy..if it had something like worms it would be a huge coincidence that worms killed the fish suddenly after 10 days in his tank but allowed it to live just fine until then. Fish aggression would make more sense, I had a wrasse randomly decide to harass a blenny to death after 7+ months of completely peaceful coexistence.

 

[griff500]

I think that you can exclude the internal parasites here at least for a death in 10 days. I did ask about the QT because with all other things with stress and so on - they normally not go well with prophylactic treatment and QT. Why you can exclude internal parasites - because there is to different (and opposite to each other) things that can happens when a fish have internal parasites. Either it does not eat at all and die rather soon or it is eating a lot but do not gain weight and it takes months before it dies of malnutrition. I have never seen a fish eating good and suddenly (without being skinny) die of internal parasites.

To guess it die because of internal parasites is for me the same as guess that the capture methods are the cause - just guesses. But the accumulated stress because of long shipping and so on can be a reason that it did not manage it.

What I understand - you have at least three more wrasses species - are you 100 % sure that there has been no bulling taking place - I have seen my wrasses and newcomers.......

Sincerely Lasse

I was struggling with the absolute certainty of the remote diagnosis... daft.

No bullying - she didn’t like the Potters Wrasse that I added and had a go at it, then went into hiding, but no bullying received and I was very observant. I wondered if this was a stress factor.

I took it the same day the shop got it - intentionally.

I was really hoping to find information to help improve the chances of success or decide not to try, but this thread has had some odd responses.

 

[Earl Karl]

Without an autopsy, it seems like a stretch to say that it was “definitely” parasites. The fish was eating and happy..if it had something like worms it would be a huge coincidence that worms killed the fish suddenly after 10 days in his tank but allowed it to live just fine until then. Fish aggression would make more sense, I had a wrasse randomly decide to harass a blenny to death after 7+ months of completely peaceful coexistence.

If it was aggression, it would go hiding in the sand to recover. Maybe I'm just making early assumptions because I guess the OP hasn't told us everything yet. Or maybe hasn't observed well. I still believe it was internal worms. Just because I said it was, doesn't mean it was ACTUALLY the reason, it's just something I strongly believe.

 

[Earl Karl]

I was struggling with the absolute certainty of the remote diagnosis... daft.

No bullying - she didn’t like the Potters Wrasse that I added and had a go at it, then went into hiding, but no bullying received and I was very observant. I wondered if this was a stress factor.

I took it the same day the shop got it - intentionally.

I was really hoping to find information to help improve the chances of success or decide not to try, but this thread has had some odd responses.

If you want to improve the chances of keeping Anampses, live in Australia. I heard people there keep them easy. Other than that, you're gonna have to gamble with them.

 

[Lasse]

What does most parasites do in the digestive tract? they are eating the food that the fish should have as nutrition - the parasites grow but not the fish. The fish must take from its reserves - it means from its body - the fish getting thin - especially in the shoulder part of the fish. If the fish still is eating - the parasites does not kill it.

There is parasites that also eat from the fish and destroy the digestive tract - if it is that type of parasites - the fish is not eating. This type of parasites can cause a bloated stomach - not because of parasite growth but because of gastrointestinal inflammation.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Magellan]

If it was aggression, it would go hiding in the sand to recover. Maybe I'm just making early assumptions because I guess the OP hasn't told us everything yet. Or maybe hasn't observed well. I still believe it was internal worms. Just because I said it was, doesn't mean it was ACTUALLY the reason, it's just something I strongly believe.

You compared fish diseases to cat diseases...just a simple google search gave me enough information to say that the OPs observations of “healthy, eating, gaining weight” would likely disqualify worms.

Worms in Fish Tanks – Are They Dangerous to Fish?

How can you tell if the worms in your fish tank are the good kind or the bad? And how do you get rid of the worms without harming any of the other lives in the tank? Learn about aquatic worms here.

m.petmd.com

 

[Earl Karl]

What does most parasites do in the digestive tract? they are eating the food that the fish should have as nutrition - the parasites grow but not the fish. The fish must take from its reserves - it means from its body - the fish getting thin - especially in the shoulder part of the fish. If the fish still is eating - the parasites does not kill it.

There is parasites that also eat from the fish and destroy the digestive tract - if it is that type of parasites - the fish is not eating. This type of parasites can cause a bloated stomach - not because of parasite growth but because of gastrointestinal inflammation.

Sincerely Lasse

You compared fish diseases to cat diseases...just a simple google search gave me enough information to say that the OPs observations of “healthy, eating, gaining weight” would likely disqualify worms.

Fish can very well still eat even with worms. Like Lasse said, there are parasites that eat from the fish and as they grow, they cause inflammation to the digestive tract, very well be disguised as gaining weight. I've seen wrasses bloated and still be able to eat. I heard from marine biologists at University of Tampa that the worms rupture the inflamed tract to escape the fish (wasn't a wrasse tho) and find another host, even when the fish "looked" healthy. I'm pretty sure a ruptured tract would cause instant or less than a day death.

 

[Lasse]

I have had African cichlids in the past. I learned one thing with them. The most stressed of them was the dominate male! Often get stress related diseases first of all.

Sorry if I missed it but have you mention when it died - did you find it dead in the morning or in the evening?

Tips how to manage these more sensitive species - I do not know but I have for the moment 6 wrasses of 3 different species. There is some other that I would like to have but I am not sure that it will be good idea - even if I would not see any bulling - it is hard for another fish of the same type to establish itself. If it was the only wrasse - I would try

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Magellan]

Fish can very well still eat even with worms. Like Lasse said, there are parasites that eat from the fish and as they grow, they cause inflammation to the digestive tract, very well be disguised as gaining weight. I've seen wrasses bloated and still be able to eat. I heard from marine biologists at University of Tampa that the worms rupture the inflamed tract to escape the fish (wasn't a wrasse tho) and find another host, even when the fish "looked" healthy. I'm pretty sure a ruptured tract would cause instant or less than a day death.

Lasse also said that those types of worms would result in a fish not eating, due to the inflamed GI tract.

 

[Lasse]

A fish with an gastrointestinal inflammation will not eat - there is no intestine it can use. Neither will a human eat in such a case - I know that of own experiences

Lasse also said that those types of worms would result in a fish not eating, due to the inflamed GI tract.

It is normally not worms as we call it - it is normally hexamitelike flagellates

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Magellan]

It’s clear what the diagnosis is. My insurance company would call this an act of god and refuse to cover it!

 

[Earl Karl]

I have seen the latter though. Maybe the OP hasn't been observant as stated. I strongly believe it is. It can't be bullying, since it would go hiding to recover the sustained damage. It can't be shipping stress/ damage since it would just be the same as the first one. The only one I can think of is either we aren't getting clear or true info from the OP, or it's internal worms.

 

[Earl Karl]

A fish with an gastrointestinal inflammation will not eat - there is no intestine it can use. Neither will a human eat in such a case - I know that of own experiences


It is normally not worms as we call it - it is normally hexamitelike flagellates

Sincerely Lasse

But there is though. It's just inflamed, but not really. Doesn't the worm have like a numbing agent? I swear I heard that from a marine biologist at UT. Otherwise, if the fish stops eating, doesn't that risk the life of the parasites?

All I know is Anampses aren't necessarily a difficult fish to keep, it's just that we live on the other side of them and the process of getting them here takes a toll on them.