Dinoflaggelates vs. Copepods

Mark Shelly · Jul 16, 2016

I have sever questions relating to dinos, copepods, and toxins. On page 59 of the Dinoflagellates - dinos a possible cure!? follow along and see, there was a reference to copepods. A brief summary is as follows:

Copepodes such as Acartia tonsa, eat diatoms and dinoflagellates predominately. Dinoflagellate often forms blooms when conditions are good (light plus ?) for their growth and some species release toxins into the water which paralyze or kill animals, including copepods. The dinoflagellates then feed off these animals.

The referenced thread is using a antibiotic to try and eliminate dinos. It first prevents them from clumping and eventually eliminates the poisons. Permanent eradication is the goal.

Question 1. Do dino's release toxins when suspended in the water column or just when in matts/globs? If not, then would it be beneficial to add/replace copepods at this time (when suspended) to help reduce the population faster as well as bring up the pod population to prevent future outbreaks.

Question 2. How can the toxins be removed or neutralized. Neutralizing the toxins before copepods, corals and fish are killed seams like it should be the first step, with the 2nd trying to eliminate the dinos and third to increase dino predators. Lots of activated carbon?

Questions 3. If you can't neutralize the toxins or if question 1 answer is no, can you dilute them? Wouldn't stirring and water changes help dilute the toxins, allowing the natural predators to help finish the job or at least survive?

Question 4. Do overflows or other filter methods remove copepods in the water column? Are any methods better than others (skimming for example) for keeping copepods in the tank?

Question 5. Are any copepods less sensitive to the toxins? If so, maybe these could be added?

Question 6. Does Cheato in sumps tilt the balance of copepods in the aquarium from dino/diatom eating species to algae eating? Or is the algae just a god place for them the eat bacteria?

Question 7. Should getting diatom/dino eating copepods be one of the stages of cycling a tank? If so, shouldn't these be added just before or as blooms occur?

The questions above are more about how we can obtain a balanced ecosystem so nothing takes over in a tank.

RMS18 · Jul 16, 2016

I know my Dino's wiped out my pod population. No Copepods, or Isopods. If I add some there none left in 2 days. It was a very $$$ time before I learned that the Dino's were killing them.

Mark Shelly · Jul 16, 2016

Question 8. If some palys can hold or produce the toxin, is it possible that the area near the palys becomes the first breeding ground for dinoflagellates if their predators can not survive there?

Question 9. If a tank full of corals is exposed to dino's and the toxin, could these corals carry the toxin to other tanks, and act like a starting point for a dino bloom?

Question 10. Do most aquarists know how toxic palytoxin is? Do they know the symptons? Do they know the danger of the toxin getting into cuts on hands or arms inside a toxic tank.

Question 11. Can the air near the tank have toxins in it? People have said it contains a bad smell that clears up with the anti-biotic treatment.

twilliard · Jul 16, 2016

Wrong thread! Sorry

twilliard · Jul 16, 2016

OK I thought it was the wrong thread as that page number didn't mention this
http://www.scienceisart.com/dockbook/a2012-09-Sep/a2012-09.html

So this is the referenced thread
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-dinos-a-possible-cure-follow-along-and-see.253917/
So as stated in am unsure if these questions can be answered as this thread is just a study.
Also the product being used is metronidazole.

Mark Shelly · Jul 16, 2016

I started this thread because they were question that I came up with from following the testing thread, but didn't feel they were appropriate there. I had also wondered if dinos were being reintroduced by equipment or water level changes (say by going dormant when dry). But you had mentioned sterilizing equipment in one of your last posts. Another possibility (unlikely) is question 12 below. I just wanted to get creative thinking going.

Thanks for putting the links in. My previous attempt at links failed.

Question 12. Since zooxanthellae are dinoflagellates, can other dinoflagellates be taken in by corals and be purged later? Is this a means that they can be reintroduced?

Question 13. Should zooxanthellae be introduced into a tank to get good dinoflagellates established before a tank goes bad to out compete dino's for resources?

Question 14. Palytoxin appears to have a lot of carbon in it (based on a very quick internet search). Does dosing carbon help contribute to its formation?

p.s. I learned the hard way that you need to edit a post within 5 minutes.

maksim serebro · Jul 17, 2016

Tagging along

Mark Shelly · Jul 17, 2016

maksim serebro said:
Tagging along

Well so far, no one has tried to answer any of the questions posted.

For question 4 (Do overflows or other filter methods remove copepods in the water column? Are any methods better than others (skimming for example) for keeping copepods in the tank?)
I looked at my skimmer cup (hang on skimmer) this morning under a microscope and didn't find any copepods. I don't know if this is because the intake is high like an overflow, or if the copepods just don't get caught in the air bubbles. Either way, this initially suggests that skimmers aren't reducing copepod populations directly. Can anyone confirm this on their tanks? If people are finding pods in their filter socks with overflows, then the vertical intake location may not matter.
I also have a trickle filter with filter pads. I could see big pods on the pads I just replaced. And under a microscope from water draining from the pads I saw quite a few small copepods, and many worms. Therefore, this trickle filter is acting to reduce my pod population. The intake for this filter is about halfway down the tank. So, I don't know if it is mostly from the intake location or just the mechanical straining properties of the filter. Finding the worms was unexpected, although small ones probably can get swept into the water column with good flow.

For question 2 (How can the toxins be removed or neutralized? Neutralizing the toxins before copepods, corals and fish are killed seams like it should be the first step...)
The only thing I could find about neutralizing dinoflagellate toxins was with a strong base, but which toxin wasn't cleat. In addition, dinos aren't the only things that can bloom and produce toxins.

p.s. It would appear that placing a used filter pad in a new tank could help jump start the cycle process, but I don't think that would be wise unless you knew the tank had nothing bad in it.

twilliard · Jul 17, 2016

I would answer them if I could but the questions are outside my scope.

mattstanks2016 · Jun 13, 2017

Ive personally have done so much to fight Dinos. I have a UV running, carbon, GFO, and silicon remover and only made a small dent. Along with this I used Kalk to raise ph. As this has slowed down growth, its still coming back! (2) 3 day black outs later, and a few months, this is my last resort. I am ordering a couple packs of copepods in hope that they will consume the dinos. Ill let you know if it works.

saltyfilmfolks · Jun 13, 2017

mattstanks2016 said:
Ive personally have done so much to fight Dinos. I have a UV running, carbon, GFO, and silicon remover and only made a small dent. Along with this I used Kalk to raise ph. As this has slowed down growth, its still coming back! (2) 3 day black outs later, and a few months, this is my last resort. I am ordering a couple packs of copepods in hope that they will consume the dinos. Ill let you know if it works.

Buy some Fiji mud. $15 and worth shot.
I dry cycled a tank with it and had more microfauna than I could shake a stick at.

Might as well really.

mattstanks2016 · Jun 25, 2017

Update, I tried copepods and it didn't seem to do much. My corals and fish perked up but that was all. Time to move on to dino x

Gary S · Apr 5, 2018

I've got the same problem boys. Been fighting these for the last month. Blackout work in reduction, but not eradication. Many people have had success in blacking out, adding 3% h2o2, and adding copepods. This 3 head attack is a popular solution. I have yet to attempt to dose h2o2, but that is becoming an apparent option.

Gary S · Apr 5, 2018

Carbon will keep toxins out of the water, but the biggest issue with dino is that it's a single cell organism that has the ability to produce cysts that later burst once the conditions are right (0 nitrate, 0 phosphates).

DNA reefs · May 15, 2019

How do you get the nitrates and phosphates up

Cbones1979 · Feb 22, 2020

mattstanks2016 said:
Ive personally have done so much to fight Dinos. I have a UV running, carbon, GFO, and silicon remover and only made a small dent. Along with this I used Kalk to raise ph. As this has slowed down growth, its still coming back! (2) 3 day black outs later, and a few months, this is my last resort. I am ordering a couple packs of copepods in hope that they will consume the dinos. Ill let you know if it works.

Did it work

Cory · Feb 22, 2020

Bmwm235i said:
I know my Dino's wiped out my pod population. No Copepods, or Isopods. If I add some there none left in 2 days. It was a very $$$ time before I learned that the Dino's were killing them.

Did you add peroxide to try to beat them?

RMS18 · Feb 23, 2020

Cory said:
Did you add peroxide to try to beat them?

Yes I tried h202 and did not see results. UV was the only took that helped outside of making sure I had nutrients. However I took out one kind of dino ostreopsisfor it to be replaced by another amphidinium . The battle continues.

Cory · Feb 23, 2020

Bmwm235i said:
Yes I tried h202 and did not see results. UV was the only took that helped outside of making sure I had nutrients. However I took out one kind of dino ostreopsisfor it to be replaced by another amphidinium . The battle continues.

I used h202 also and i think it killed all my pods. Thats why i asked.