Dinoflaggelates vs. Copepods

[7237689918]

Raise your po4 thats howni got rid of mine. High no3 and po4.

Same here. Followed popular advice to make the tank "dirty". Caused algae issues but Dinos went away pretty quick once I raised everything.

 

[RMS18]

Raise your po4 thats howni got rid of mine. High no3 and po4.

How high did you go? My po4 is at .06 and no3 is 5-10.

 

[Cory]

How high did you go? My po4 is at .06 and no3 is 5-10.

I raised my po4 to .60 ppm no3 was already at 160ppm +. I just overdosed it. No issues with corals.

And fwiw po4 is still .40ppm months later no issues.

 

[Neoalchemist]

Carbon does very well at removing toxins but needs to be refreshed often like every three days or so.
I believe you are on the rkght track in innoculating the tank with microfauna during start up but once a dino bloom is under way pods dont stand a chance.
I believe pods are far less important in a dino fight than diversity of bacteria

 

[Malifry97]

#reefsquad can any of you answer OP's questions?

 

[Idoc]

Question 1. Do dino's release toxins when suspended in the water column or just when in matts/globs? If not, then would it be beneficial to add/replace copepods at this time (when suspended) to help reduce the population faster as well as bring up the pod population to prevent future outbreaks.

- I'm not sure about when the toxins are released...seems that I recall they release toxins when they die or their dead bodies are toxic.

Question 2. How can the toxins be removed or neutralized. Neutralizing the toxins before copepods, corals and fish are killed seams like it should be the first step, with the 2nd trying to eliminate the dinos and third to increase dino predators. Lots of activated carbon?

- Use activated carbon to remove the toxins from the water column...works well. Yes, run carbon from the beginning...less chance for toxicity.

Questions 3. If you can't neutralize the toxins or if question 1 answer is no, can you dilute them? Wouldn't stirring and water changes help dilute the toxins, allowing the natural predators to help finish the job or at least survive?

- Performing water changes in contraindicated when first fighting dino outbreaks, so diluting toxins doesn't seem feasible. Best to just use carbon.

Question 4. Do overflows or other filter methods remove copepods in the water column? Are any methods better than others (skimming for example) for keeping copepods in the tank?

- Yes, copepods are removed with filter media. But, the amount removed will be miniscule to the amount you have in your system. I still attempt to rescue all amphipods as possible from my filter socks, though...but copepods...too hard to see in a filter sock! I wouldn't worry about your export systems removing copepods.

Question 5. Are any copepods less sensitive to the toxins? If so, maybe these could be added?

- I don't know....I don't recall ever seeing anything concerning this before in any research I've done on dinos. But, when I was fighting dinos, I added copepods a few times. I didn't really see any changes, though...but adding new forms of biodiversity help.

Question 6. Does Cheato in sumps tilt the balance of copepods in the aquarium from dino/diatom eating species to algae eating? Or is the algae just a god place for them the eat bacteria?

- I haven't heard of this...let alone heard of any copepod species that eats dinos. There is some research that shows placing a clump of chaeto directly on top of a mat of dinos (on the sand bed) did cause the dinos underneath to die. Supposedly the chaeto may use a sort of chemical warfare that kills dinos...I believe this was done on small cell amphidinium dinos.

Question 7. Should getting diatom/dino eating copepods be one of the stages of cycling a tank? If so, shouldn't these be added just before or as blooms occur?

- See #6 above...if there were a dino-eating copepod, you can bet it would be being marketed and sold as the miracle cure for dinos. Honestly, I wouldn't focus on this as a preventative dino measure. If you want to prevent dinos, it seems cycling with live rock, live sand, and making sure to always keep no3/po4 existent in the sytem is the best course of action. I've done this in coral/invert quarantine tanks AND still ended up with dino explosions! Basically, a young system is going to be susceptible until it has matured with micro-fauna growth throughout the system.

See message above....I attempted to answer your questions directly in your message. Hope it helps!

 

[CenlaReefer]

Any research out there showing that Acartia tonsa pods eat diatoms and dinos as mentioned at the opening of the thread? Any other pods help?

 

[Miller535]

Any research out there showing that Acartia tonsa pods eat diatoms and dinos as mentioned at the opening of the thread? Any other pods help?

I have not seen research, but have seen many people claiming they added Phyto with copepods, as well as dosing something like microbacter7, and raising nutrients helped. I think the only thing that beats dinos is a multi pronged attack from what I gather.

I currently have dino's and am going to attempt all the things I just listed.

 

[Miller535]

I have a few other things I am working on with my tank right now. But probably in about 2 weeks I am going to start trying to get rid of my dinos. Think I'll start a new thread when I do.

 

[DesertReefT4r]

I know my Dino's wiped out my pod population. No Copepods, or Isopods. If I add some there none left in 2 days. It was a very $$$ time before I learned that the Dino's were killing them.

Had the same problem. Dinos killed off a large portion of my pod population. After 2 months of no dinos I am slowly seeing pods again. Its like the ecosystem is having to reset. Feeding phytoplankton has helped im sure.

 

[CenlaReefer]

I discovered that I can get Acartia tonsa from AlaGen via Marine Depot. I plan to order some and give them a try. It has to be with a special order over the phone because it is not on the website. I asked them to increase the online order varieties they sell. I only have a very minimal amount of dinos yet do not want to let it get out of control.

 

[cedwards04]

Bringing this back as I am currently fighting dinos as well. I've hit mine from several angles with no luck. Uv sterilizer, elevated no3/po4, black outs, peroxide, elegant corals Dino regimen, nothing has worked. I have several times thought I had them beat, only for them to return a few days or a week or so later. It is beyond frustrating.

I recently ran across this article: https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...-everywhere-you-look-and-even-where-you-dont/
After seeing an add from algae barn claiming dosing pods/phyto will beat dinos. I don't know if all pods eat dinos, or only certain pods. I'd be interested in finding out for sure.

I understand that dinos are toxic to pods, but is this bc they consume the dinos and die, or is it bc the dinos are releasing toxins into the water? So far my coral are all OK.

I currently have a culture of tisbe pods growing (as of today), as well as my friend is culturing phyto for me. My plan is to grow my pod culture to pretty substantial numbers, then start a pod dosing schedule. I'm hoping that the pods will consume some dinos before dying off, at which point hopefully I will have more pods being dosed into the tank to continue consuming dinos. Maybe at some point the pods will win out?

I really do not know what else to try. I do have some 35% peroxide in route, I plan to dose that in small amounts to knock back the dinos, do another 4-5 day black out, and start dosing pods and phytoplankton heavily during and after the black out. Hopefully by culturing my own pods and phyto, I won't go broke trying to see if this works.

I am nearly to the point of just shutting it all down. I simply cannot keep up with the maintenance pace much longer.

 

[RMS18]

Bringing this back as I am currently fighting dinos as well. I've hit mine from several angles with no luck. Uv sterilizer, elevated no3/po4, black outs, peroxide, elegant corals Dino regimen, nothing has worked. I have several times thought I had them beat, only for them to return a few days or a week or so later. It is beyond frustrating.

I recently ran across this article: https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...-everywhere-you-look-and-even-where-you-dont/
After seeing an add from algae barn claiming dosing pods/phyto will beat dinos. I don't know if all pods eat dinos, or only certain pods. I'd be interested in finding out for sure.

I understand that dinos are toxic to pods, but is this bc they consume the dinos and die, or is it bc the dinos are releasing toxins into the water? So far my coral are all OK.

I currently have a culture of tisbe pods growing (as of today), as well as my friend is culturing phyto for me. My plan is to grow my pod culture to pretty substantial numbers, then start a pod dosing schedule. I'm hoping that the pods will consume some dinos before dying off, at which point hopefully I will have more pods being dosed into the tank to continue consuming dinos. Maybe at some point the pods will win out?

I really do not know what else to try. I do have some 35% peroxide in route, I plan to dose that in small amounts to knock back the dinos, do another 4-5 day black out, and start dosing pods and phytoplankton heavily during and after the black out. Hopefully by culturing my own pods and phyto, I won't go broke trying to see if this works.

I am nearly to the point of just shutting it all down. I simply cannot keep up with the maintenance pace much longer.

I totally get it. I beat dinos after months of fighting. Everything was going well till I pulled my fish for qt. Then bam Dino's full blown again. It's honestly not fun, never knowing if you will get a bloom not knowing why or what you did. It will be nice when one day we have a cure in a bottle. Just think 3-4 years ago did we think a Trident would exist. Eventually this hobby will be easier to succeed in. Hang in there if you don't have corals or if they are expendable, I'd restart. Fish can go into a holding tank for now.

 

[Mark]

Might be an iron buildup issue. Are you running GFO? Pull it. When's the last time you swapped out the DI on your RODI? Might want to replace that. Then run some cuprisorb.

See my thoughts here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/defeating-dinos-by-controlling-the-fate-of-iron.694703/

 

[cedwards04]

I do not use gfo. Iron is undetectable on my icp tests. Resins get changed as they should. I could be wrong, but I don't think Iron is my problem.

 

[Mark]

Iron is hard to test for. I'd check your magnets as well. Maybe not the issue, but just giving you another thing to investigate.

 

[sh@rkB@it]

Very interesting and very well laid out analysis. Here is my situation. My dino outbreak started after using vibrant to fight bubble algae. During this time, I also was carbon dosing. The two stripped my nutrients down to 0. Next came dinos which I am still battling. It's been seven months now since this past January.

Back in April, I replaced one of my wave maker's internal magnet because it had significant rust due to a the broken housing. It was replaced. But in the past two weeks I found that my second wave maker's magnet housing is also broken so I removed the wave maker.

Here's what I have observed to slow the dino's so far.

• Increase Ph, opened a window nearby
• Increase NO3 and PO4 through dosing and feeding a lot more
• UV
• Manual removal (siphoning through 1 micron sock and dumping water back into tank)

This past weekend, I cleaned everything in my tank and inspected all my equipment for any rust or corrosion. I siphoned my water probably a dozen times through the 1 micron filter sock. Scrubbed my rocks to loosen all the detritus and dinos.

My tank is a 20 gallon AIO and I am seriously considering adding chaeto to one of the back chambers.

My dino outbreak and the relationship between low nutrients and excess iron from broken magnets is certainly an interesting angle on the whole dino phenomenon right now. Could it be a coincidence that my magnets were rusted out during the time my tank was being stripped of nutrients due to dosing vibrant and carbon dosing that triggered my dino outbreak?

 

[Cbones1979]

Dinos...little towers w bubbles on them

 

[Stephers]

See message above....I attempted to answer your questions directly in your message. Hope it helps!

@Idoc Any chance you have a source for the chaeto and small cell amphidinium research? I've had these buggers for years now and I'm desperate for new things to try. Thanks

 

[Idoc]

@Idoc Any chance you have a source for the chaeto and small cell amphidinium research? I've had these buggers for years now and I'm desperate for new things to try. Thanks

I don't have any specific research source for using chaeto clumps on the amphidinium dinos in the sand. I believe i read about its effects on the forum in one of the dino threads. I can't recall which one though.

I still have small cell amphidinium dinos in my system, but at least they are managed and limited to some dusting in the sand now. I've just learned to live with them now... they aren't hurting anything any longer.

Try the Elegant Corals dino cure method using waste away and tiny micro- bubbles. That is what cleaned up my tank and controlled them for me. Nothing else really worked for me.