Dinos / diatoms ID

bearman88 · Nov 25, 2020

stonecoldant316 said:
sponges

I don't have any sponges that I'm aware of, unless they are hitchhikers/not visible to the eye?

stonecoldant316 · Nov 25, 2020

bearman88 said:
I don't have any sponges that I'm aware of, unless they are hitchhikers/not visible to the eye?

often they're in the rocks

bearman88 · Nov 25, 2020

stonecoldant316 said:
often they're in the rocks

I guess if I keep dosing they will eventually grow until they pop out of the rocks huh? lol

bill-0308 · Nov 28, 2020

I want to share my experience of Amphidinium i have been fighting these things for approx 2+ yrs spent hundreds of £££ and lost 90% of corals i'd had for yrs,after various treatments and i was about to throw the towel in when i came across a thread on another forum a guy in a similar position fighting amph and tried the bacteria method which consisted of aquaforest bio s and fauna marin rebiotic with amazing results, i am now in my 5th week of treatment after following the same method and i have no visible signs of amph.
the treatment consisted of 1tsp rebiotic and 6 drops 1.5 times the dose of bio s every day , no skimmer,no water change (but did a water change wk 4) no gfo, no uv, no sand, the result was alot of green algae which took over the brown dino and hasn't reappeared,its early days but the signs are very encouraging.

bearman88 · Nov 28, 2020

Silicate levels are still just now at .30ppm. I've been dosing 150mL of spongeexcel.. I have no idea how my silica levels have not got up to the target ~2.0ppm. It doesn't seem right to keep increasing my dosing to 200ML a day. I'm a little confused and discouraged by the silica/diatom cultivating effort.

I'm going to do a 20g waterchange (30%), because some of my coral just seem like they need it and I'm tired of watching coral die (mostly sps). From there I may try the sucking out dinos every few days, blackouts, etc...

Any ideas on why my silica just wouldn't rise after 3 weeks of dosing heavily? I didn't use live rock that could have had sponges.. maybe a couple small pieces that's it.

Also, when I microscoped a sample yesterday, I couldn't spot any diatoms. Perhaps with no water changes, they don't have trace elements needed to grow?
@ScottB kindly asking if you know of any other R2R experts on this topic

ScottB · Nov 29, 2020

bearman88 said:
Silicate levels are still just now at .30ppm. I've been dosing 150mL of spongeexcel.. I have no idea how my silica levels have not got up to the target ~2.0ppm. It doesn't seem right to keep increasing my dosing to 200ML a day. I'm a little confused and discouraged by the silica/diatom cultivating effort.

I'm going to do a 20g waterchange (30%), because some of my coral just seem like they need it and I'm tired of watching coral die (mostly sps). From there I may try the sucking out dinos every few days, blackouts, etc...

Any ideas on why my silica just wouldn't rise after 3 weeks of dosing heavily? I didn't use live rock that could have had sponges.. maybe a couple small pieces that's it.

Also, when I microscoped a sample yesterday, I couldn't spot any diatoms. Perhaps with no water changes, they don't have trace elements needed to grow?
@ScottB kindly asking if you know of any other R2R experts on this topic

Dosing that much to a 65G system should be loading it up pretty good. @taricha reports that Hanna is the only way to get a good measure on Silica. Odd that the scope isn't picking up any diatoms yet. Diatoms are usually the first things to appear even without dosing.

I am fine with WCs. It won't affect your PO4 or Si levels much but will proportionally lower your NO3.

Sorry about the SPS losses, but most 5 mo old dead rock systems can't keep them in the best of circumstances. The biome is just too volatile.

As far as expertise on dinos, taricha is the most informed on the subject that I have seen here. The main Amphidinium Treatment thread has many hundreds of posters to it, but I have not seen conclusive evidence pile up for a particular method. Just a lot of noise (bacteria, peroxide, ritual sacrifices...) and gnashing of teeth.

I think I started with the suggestion of just pretending it is not there, adding a bunch of fish and letting it die out as the biome matures.

taricha · Nov 30, 2020

bearman88 said:
Silicate levels are still just now at .30ppm. I've been dosing 150mL of spongeexcel.. I have no idea how my silica levels have not got up to the target ~2.0ppm. It doesn't seem right to keep increasing my dosing to 200ML a day. I'm a little confused and discouraged by the silica/diatom cultivating effort.

I'm going to do a 20g waterchange (30%), because some of my coral just seem like they need it and I'm tired of watching coral die (mostly sps). From there I may try the sucking out dinos every few days, blackouts, etc...

Any ideas on why my silica just wouldn't rise after 3 weeks of dosing heavily? I didn't use live rock that could have had sponges.. maybe a couple small pieces that's it.

Also, when I microscoped a sample yesterday, I couldn't spot any diatoms. Perhaps with no water changes, they don't have trace elements needed to grow?

Thoughts:
Test kits other than hanna / hach have a really bad track record at detecting any Si at all.
Si depletes quickly, but your dose level sounds high.
Diatoms can grow with lower levels of pigmentation if nutrients are scarce, so they may not always appear as brown dust. Microscope is needed. (understand you say you don't see them under the scope.)
indeed, if N &P and Si are available and little diatom growth appears, then that means trace elements are depleted and a water change may help corals and get things moving on the diatom front as well.
I promise you have sponges somewhere in your system, dry rock or not.

Post pic of microscope shots of the dino patch next time you check.

bearman88 · Nov 30, 2020

taricha said:
Thoughts:
Test kits other than hanna / hach have a really bad track record at detecting any Si at all.
Si depletes quickly, but your dose level sounds high.
Diatoms can grow with lower levels of pigmentation if nutrients are scarce, so they may not always appear as brown dust. Microscope is needed. (understand you say you don't see them under the scope.)
indeed, if N &P and Si are available and little diatom growth appears, then that means trace elements are depleted and a water change may help corals and get things moving on the diatom front as well.
I promise you have sponges somewhere in your system, dry rock or not.

Post pic of microscope shots of the dino patch next time you check.

ok thank you taricha and ScottB. Yesterday I did a 20g WC. I'm now leaning towards scrapping the effort to fight dinos now. The idea of getting the tank back on normal routine with ideal parameters and stability sounds better. I'd rather have happy fish and thriving coral than a semi-crippled system for weeks on end.

I stopped the Si dosing yesterday. Started skimmer back. I'll keep GFO/carbon reactor off.

I will post a microscope shot next chance.

bearman88 · Dec 7, 2020

Here's some more microscope shots taken today. Also there's a full tank shot. This is about 7 days since the water change. Did a 16g WC today. These dinos grow back pretty thick within 4-5 days. I could deal it aesthetically if it took a full week, but this is bad.

@ScottB @taricha here's the follow up - do you still think its large amphidinium? I see no diatom structures since my heavy silica dosing...

@taricha in one of your main dinos posts, you mention the status quo method for large amph. is to siphon out every few days and wait it out. With this method, do you stop water changes?

Videos - sorry for the baby music in the background

stonecoldant316 · Dec 7, 2020

this last pic almost looks more cyanoish?? Not the microscopic pics though.

bearman88 · Dec 7, 2020

stonecoldant316 said:
this last pic almost looks more cyanoish?? Not the microscopic pics though.

The color in the camera is off. It is more brown than that. It's not red/purple tint at all. Sorry, forgot to mention in op.

ScottB · Dec 8, 2020

Those vids and images aren't doing much for me in terms of conviction. Maybe you can compare them yourself versus @taricha 's ID guide?

Dinoflagellate Identification Guide

I've had this laying around for a while. Had some recent interest, so I tweaked it a bit and am posting it. Not really about cures just ID pictures, videos, and a few short facts. Hope it can be helpful.

www.reef2reef.com

bearman88 · Dec 13, 2020

Ok got a new microscope - this one:
It's way better so far - has a built-in camera. I'm not sure I am at 1200x zoom though as it claims it can be. Also - the base is a metallic metal, so I put a piece of printer paper and then the plastic slide.. so any tips there for a solid background would help.

I also cannot figure out how to get zoomed in close enough to see the detail we need. The dino ID guide has samples at 400x that are more detailed than my best effort with two supposed 1200x zoom microscopes.

Finally - after reading and watching multiple videos - I am convinced it is amphidinum. There is no movement like the ostreopsis exhibits.

bumping @taricha and @ScottB you guys see anything better with this video and pic?

bearman88 · Dec 14, 2020

New telescope:

bearman88 · Dec 14, 2020

Something is messed up with the Amazon link.. That's the microscope I have now.

bearman88 · Dec 22, 2020

So I got a hannah low range silica checker, which read at its max, 2.0ppm. So I'm assuming it is higher than 2.0. I have ordered a triton ICS mega test kit to send off, will report back then.

bearman88 · Jan 27, 2021

@ScottB after choosing the 'ignore it' method, it seems I am now gaining some ground on the dinos, as well as the green hair algae. I'm no longer dosing anything, just feeding mysis/reef roids/phyto pretty heavily. I only have a maroon clown and a small barber goby.

I've also been doing 20% water changes the past couple weeks.

I've had two royal grammas not make it past 1-2 days. Had 4-5 SPS frags die since September (that was a dumb move to buy).

Also my ricordeas which were huge and thriving, mysteriously died around the same time I was heavy silica dosing (Very heavy).

Torch coral and frogspawn are thriving, but my ruby red goniopora willl not extend past half an inch. It's likely due to unstable alk/ca/mg I have stopped monitoring but am focusing on now.

I also got my first ATI test results back, basically said my tin and nickel were increased, and silicon elevated (1061 µg/l out of a reference value of 89.58 µg/l). I also had tin at 10.09 µg/l in my RO DI water.

Hoping this is the light at the end of the dinos tunnel.. stay tuned

ScottB · Jan 28, 2021

bearman88 said:
@ScottB after choosing the 'ignore it' method, it seems I am now gaining some ground on the dinos, as well as the green hair algae. I'm no longer dosing anything, just feeding mysis/reef roids/phyto pretty heavily. I only have a maroon clown and a small barber goby.

I've also been doing 20% water changes the past couple weeks.

I've had two royal grammas not make it past 1-2 days. Had 4-5 SPS frags die since September (that was a dumb move to buy).

Also my ricordeas which were huge and thriving, mysteriously died around the same time I was heavy silica dosing (Very heavy).

Torch coral and frogspawn are thriving, but my ruby red goniopora willl not extend past half an inch. It's likely due to unstable alk/ca/mg I have stopped monitoring but am focusing on now.

I also got my first ATI test results back, basically said my tin and nickel were increased, and silicon elevated (1061 µg/l out of a reference value of 89.58 µg/l). I also had tin at 10.09 µg/l in my RO DI water.

Hoping this is the light at the end of the dinos tunnel.. stay tuned

Good to hear you are seeing some light.

As to goniopora, I just do not understand those things. Mine will double in size in 6 months time, and the next morning they are dead. No clue. I've killed 4 over the years.

vetteguy53081 · Jan 28, 2021

ScottB said:
Good to hear you are seeing some light.

As to goniopora, I just do not understand those things. Mine will double in size in 6 months time, and the next morning they are dead. No clue. I've killed 4 over the years.

One of the pickiest and most challenging coral you will encounter