Dinos (plan of action)

[Dj City]

Detailed Plan of Action...

This is on 180gal 4 month old tank. Dinos on sand, rock, glass, pumps. (Surfaces).

Nitrates...............0 - 5ppm (Closer to 5ppm)
Phos....................0.04 - 0.08
Alk.......................8.16 (Trident)
Cal.......................418 (Trident)
Mag....................1398 (Trident)
Ph.......................7.95 (Apex probe)
Salt.....................35.5 (Apex probe)
ORP....................339 (Apex probe)
Temp..................80 (Apex probe)
Nitrate test is API reagent via Reefbot
Phos test is Red Sea reagent via Reefbot.

I did a 3 day blackout with properly sized pentair aquatics smart 40watt UV running with correct flow rate.
The dinos were knocked back but as expected, they were not defeated (yet).

I am taking an aggressive multi pronged approach to this problem.
U.V.
3 day blackout
Diatomaceous earth filter
Dr Tim's Dino recipe
Dr Tim's waste away gel

I broke the quartz sleeve to my UV when I pulled it from the tank 2 weeks ago when I did my 3 day blackout with the UV.
The new quartz sleeve for my UV arrived day before yesterday and I put the UV back into temporary service (no blackout).
I have the feed pump in the tank and the return in the tank creating a closed loop. Pump is a Jeabo DCP15000. Pump sits about a 1/2 inch above the sandbed. PVC pipe goes from pump to top of tank (about 25 inches) through 2 90° elbows forming a "U" and down about 6ft. to the Pentair Aquatics Smart 40 watt UV.
The UV is laying horizontally on the floor in front of the tank. Water goes through the UV then back up about 6ft of PVC pipe then through 2 90° elbows forming a "U" to return water to the tank.
I am flowing 1019 gph through the UV according to apex flow meter. The UV calls for between 943 - 1574 gph to deal with algae, bacteria and dinos.
I turn all the sand over aggressively to get the dinos into the water column.
I use a Tunze 6105 on full blast to blow the rocks, sand and all surfaces. I put the pump right up to the rocks and all surfaces to make the biggest mess I can getting everything in the water column so it can go through the UV.

I have 4 Marineland Magnum polishing internal filters. Each rated for up to 97 gal tank / 290 gph. These filters will run Diatomaceous earth powder to mechanically filter dinos out.

I will be using Dr Tim's Dino recipe. This should wipe dinos out along with the other methods I am employing. The treatment consists of a 3 day blackout while dosing Dr Tim's Refresh then dosing Dr Tim's Waste Away liquid.
Once treatment is finished, Dr Tim's Waste Away gel will be employed.

This approach should kill dinos and keep em dead!

I'm not sure if I should run the diatom filters before or after the Dr. Tim's. Dinos treatment.

Should I run the filters before, After, and or during the Dr. Tim's Dino treatment?

 

[Dj City]

This is what I'm dealing with.

This is the temporary UV set up

Anyone have thoughts or suggestions on my approach?

 

[Dj City]

I'm not sure if I should run the diatom filters before or after the Dr. Tim's. Dinos treatment.
Should I run the filters before, After, and or during the Dr. Tim's Dino treatment?

Is there nobody out there with experience that can help guide me in this or answer my questions?

 

[Chrille26]

I am sorry I cant really answer your questions about dr tims since I am not using that method myself, but I think it looks like you got most known methods covered, so you should see some improvements if you keep at it.
I am in a similar situation but my outbreak is not as big as yours.
I run a UV filter on 24/7 in the display, I dose Microbacter7 and special blend on alternate days, and I do manual removal by siphon or by just using a toothbrush to get the dinos into the water column then I let the UV and skimmer set on wetskim remove the floating bits.
I think what we have in common is that our tanks are about the same age, and I think that with good stable water parameters and patience alot of these issues resolve themselfs as the tank mature and things stabilize, just keep removing the big mass of dinos to let the better organisms take over.

 

[Beardo]

Do you know what type of dinos you have? Knowing what species can help in treatment plan. In my opinion a decent microscope is a good tool to have.

From my experience, your UV may be undersized for the size of your tank. Your flow rate may also be on the high side. I had tried a 57 watt on first a 240g then later a 270g after a move and it wasn't effective. Once I upgraded to a 114 watt, I had great success. But understand that UV isn't effective for every type of dino which is why I asked if you identified which type you have. Some, like large cell amphidinium, don't enter the water column.
I tried Dr Tim's refesh and waste away after a discussion with them at MACNA, unfortunately that didn't work for me. Didn't use the waste away gel though as it wasn't mentioned when I had I spoke with them. Might be a newer product, not sure.
As far as your plan, I would probably run the DE filters before starting the Dr. Tim's treatment to remove as much as possible. Never tried DE but used 5 micron socks with additional siphoning through the socks for physical removal. DE filtration is the same principle.

Good luck with your battle.

 

[Aquatic Lifeline]

I hate to say this, but I think you're doing to much. Especially with stirring up the sand bed. If you clean the sand bed, just barely skim the surface enough to suck up the dino.
The sand bed is supposed to serve as a biological filter and if you keep disturbing your biological filter your beneficial bacteria will never establish the way you need it to, to help keep your aquarium healthy.
What lights are those? And how long do you run them? May I suggest only running lights for maybe 4 hours a day.
I know they are unsightly and can grow over coral but they will go away when your tank matures more. Sometimes keeping hands out of the tank can be the best thing for it. Stability is what a tank needs. If you continuously mess with it, It will never become stable.
Good luck, I hope it all works out.

 

[Aquatic Lifeline]

I hate to say this, but I think you're doing to much. Especially with stirring up the sand bed. If you clean the sand bed, just barely skim the surface enough to suck up the dino.
The sand bed is supposed to serve as a biological filter and if you keep disturbing your biological filter your beneficial bacteria will never establish the way you need it to, to help keep your aquarium healthy.
What lights are those? And how long do you run them? May I suggest only running lights for maybe 4 hours a day.
I know they are unsightly and can grow over coral but they will go away when your tank matures more. Sometimes keeping hands out of the tank can be the best thing for it. Stability is what a tank needs. If you continuously mess with it, It will never become stable.
Good luck, I hope it all works out.
Sorry, I forgot to ask if you use aerosol cleaning sprays or any sort of cleaning product near your tank. Sometimes that can throw things out of wack and cause bacterial blooms.

 

[Rick5]

I would order some live rock. Based on the picture above, it looks like you're using dry rock. Am I correct? If it were me, I'd replace the dry rock in its entirety with live rock.

You could boost your nitrate and phosphate, as well. The problem with boosting nitrate and phosphate excessively is that your sand and dry rock will absorb the phosphate. So once you have eliminated the dinos, you may face nutrient yo-yo hell. It's unpleasant. If you want, you can do a quick search for comments I've made recently regarding my two dino battles. You could also get some sea lettuce and phyto if you want to pursue all the potential fixes at once - but I think live rock may be your best bet.

 

[Dj City]

Thank you.
I forget the type of dinos I have but they primarily stay on surfaces. I confirmed them with a microscope about a year ago from my old tank which is where I believe these came from via cheato or bio media.

The UV is sized correctly and correct flow according to Pentair aquatics.
I need to blow the dinos into the water column many times in an effort to get them through the UV. I will be doing the Dr Tim's regiment soon.
Right now I'm keeping an eye on what's happening with my tank and the dinos and what effect the UV is having.

I have 5 year old, Very established bio media from my old tank. Some of that bio media was 10 years old when it went into my old tank making it at least 15 years old. I can take all sand out of the display and not worry about bio load as its all in the sump.

This is not something that will go away on its own with time or tank maturity. The tank is NOT balanced yet but if i don't take care of the dinos, the tank will never balance.

 

[jeffrey750750]

This is what I'm dealing with.

This is the temporary UV set up

Anyone have thoughts or suggestions on my approach?

I don't know if you saw any of the threads about raising your tank water to 82 degrees? It worked for me

 

[ActualProof]

There’s some sound advice on here. I am also of the mindset that you’re doing too much. I’ve fought this battle many times, and it seems the key is to not actively “fight”. Too much disturbing of the substrate and rocks can contribute to lingering dinos. They’re occupying a niche because it’s unoccupied by other organisms. Marco dry rock almost always has a significantly protracted dino phase. You can crowd them out by seeding the tank with some mature live rock, dosing phytoplankton, making sure NO/PO stays above zero, and holding off on water changes. Plan on this taking 9-12 months to resolve and balance out in the absence of fully mature live rock. Wear shoulder-length gloves when working in the tank.

*** disclaimer: this next section is not a blanket recommendation, and must be seen as anecdotal advice. If you want to try something that sounds like heretic witchcraft, but that I have personally seen work several times: find a LFS or fellow hobbyist who has a problem with GHA in a tank. Acquire a mature live rock with several hair algae tufts on it. Transplant this rock into your tank and make sure your NO/PO stays slightly elevated, even dosing KNO3 (if necessary). Now watch the GHA begin to take a foothold while the Dinos wither away. Now switch to one of Brandon’s methods for controlling GHA

 

[Derby City Corals]

Try raise your nitrates up slowly to around 15-20 ppm
We have found that Dino’s is usually caused by a imbalance between nitrates and phosphates
We use to fight Dino’s daily and then we started dosing 20ml of sodium nitrate daily in our 450 gallon coral system and whitin a week all the Dino’s disappeared

 

[piranhaman00]

Raise nutrients to 10/.1 , blow off all surfaces each night, no need to dose bacterial additives

 

[Dj City]

Nitrates...............0 - 5ppm (Closer to 5ppm)
Phos....................0.04 - 0.08
Alk.......................8.6 (Trident)
Cal.......................406 (Trident)
Mag....................1357 (Trident)
Ph.......................7.79 (Apex probe) 7:30am
Salt.....................35.5 (Apex probe)
ORP....................353 (Apex probe)
Temp..................77.8 (Apex probe)
Nitrate test is API reagent via Reefbot
Phos test is Red Sea reagent via Reefbot.

I have run my lights on regular schedule for the past two days with the UV running. I will observe the tank for the next few days to see what's happening with the dinos. Yesterday tank looked good but dinos are present on overflow and powerheads. They are thin and light amount but still present.
Problem is that I can't KEEP the UV in operation like this even if it's effective. I can't have a giant return pump in my display. Running it from the sump to the sump is a waste. (See BRS UV videos)

I believe the approach I am taking is a good approach based on theory, past experiences and experiences of others.
I currently have UV running which should be reducing dinos population when I blow the rocks and sand and clean the glass to get the dinos into the water column. I plan to pull the UV in a few days and start treatment.

1... Employ UV Sterilizer in closed loop
2... 3 day blackout dosing Dr. Tim's Refresh
3... Continue with Dr Tim's Waste Away liquid.
4... Use Dr. Tim's Waste Away gel in sump.

I am trying to decide when to use the heavy mechanical filtration (DE filters). Before treatment, after treatment or before and after. I will not use during because it filters down to 1 micron. I don't want Dr. Tim's bacteria getting filtered out.

This is not my 1st fight with dinos. Last battle I had was a 5 year battle on my old 110 gallon reef. DInos won.

The war I lost...
I raised nitrates and phosphates. (No good)
I used UV but did not know I was using it improperly. (No good)
Blackouts (knock them back but not good enough on its own)
Vibrant dosing. (No good)
MB7 dosing. (No good)
Peroxide dosing. (No good)
Sea cucumbers. (No good)
Stupidly high flow. (No good)
Leaving sand alone. (No good)
Surface siphoning sandbed. (No good)
Deep disturbing sandbed with heavy mechanical filtration using 5 micron socks changed every day. (Better but no good)
Feeding tank. (No good)
Starving tank. (No good)
Increase pods. (No good)
Beefed up fuge chaeto. (No good)
Decrease light intensity. (No good)
Increase light intensity. (No good)
Change light fixtures. (No good)
Sacred Indian dino dance. (No good)
9mm. (No good)
.45 ACP. (No good)
12ga. (No good)
Photon torpedo straight from the Starship Enterprise. (No good)

 

[Pyrosteve]

*** disclaimer: this next section is not a blanket recommendation, and must be seen as anecdotal advice. If you want to try something that sounds like heretic witchcraft, but that I have personally seen work several times: find a LFS or fellow hobbyist who has a problem with GHA in a tank. Acquire a mature live rock with several hair algae tufts on it. Transplant this rock into your tank and make sure your NO/PO stays slightly elevated, even dosing KNO3 (if necessary). Now watch the GHA begin to take a foothold while the Dinos wither away. Now switch to one of Brandon’s methods for controlling GHA

I have not tried transplanting GHA from someone who had it but gave it serious consideration during my last battle with dinos. Whenever I cleaned all GHA out, dinos started to return.

 

[Dj City]

The UV plumbed the way I had it really did what it was supposed to do.
The dinos are not gone but they have been knocked back greatly.

Today I removed the UV and wrapped the tank (blackout).
Today is day 1 of Dr. Tim's Refresh. I'm going to follow this regiment and see where it ends up. I have not put the DE filters to use yet. I am still debating on that.

 

[PurpleMonsterSlayer]

i would recommend testing no3 and po4 daily and dosing to keep these in check since using the dr tims should lower these a bit and could potential bottom out

 

[Dj City]

I am cautiously encouraged.
I've had the lights on for 4 days now and no crazy re-emergence of dinos.
Granted, it's only been 4 days of light but usually 4 days of light is enough to begin to see dinos re-populate.
Sand is still white(ish). Rocks are looking good. No dinos so far on pumps or plumbing. Glass is clear. Sump and display smell way better.

I will continue the Dr Tim's regiment and keep an eye on things but this is looking better for now.

I have 2 days to go on the waste away treatment.
I still plan on doing the entire treatment again just as a knock em out the box measure but I probably will wait about a week or so before starting again. That should give me time to really observe the tank for dinos.

 

[ArmyReefer]

DJ City

How did this end up for you. I am following the same treatment plan and will be wrapping my tank up tonight. I am super nervous about it.

Couple of questions for you

Did you feed your fish during the blackout?
How did you ensure that the water was not getting cloudy per dr tims instruction?
Did you run your UV when you turned your skimmer back on?

 

[Dj City]

It's been a while since I updated this thread.
No more dinos!
At least none that reproduce faster than they die.
The regiment I employed worked!