Disaster

[brandon429]

I personally never knew acclimation was this sensitive but something sure has to be. 1 going down overnite can be any random X, but two means a controlled variable is in place able to be reversed somewhere. owing to the thousands of studied cycles at day ten on bottle bac always controlling ammonia well, and its documented again above, we'd rule out the tank and begin on the external factors this is a helpful thread to learn from.

 

[Kobadinsky]

I used the Red Sea kit to test for ammonia.

The other tests were digital using Hanna checkers.

Then I would think your levels are fine…

 

[moz71]

I m definitely thinking something in acclimation then! Salinity shock

 

[JJHLH]

Thanks for all of this information it really helps. So two things: I’m not saying that nitrates of 10-11 is a bad thing, it’s not. I’m just curious how they got there in a sterile tank. Secondly, the day you introduced your fish into the tank your your nitrates more than doubled to 23.4 Now I’m really curious!!!
I helped a person about 4 months ago determine the deaths of (coincidentally 2 clowns) the only fish in their 20g cube. After asking every possible question and every angle. I asked her if she had the room sprayed for bugs? Do you have a maid who may have sprayed a chemical, something toxic in the air, on the open tank water? She thought for a moment and said. We had the carpets cleaned in this room the day before the fish died. And after the carpets were cleaned aerosol freshener was sprayed to take away more smell. (Dog crapped on carpet). I told her that her protein skimmer takes in so much air that if she were to run a 1/4” air hose from the skimmer to just outside the window it would increase the Ph from 7.8 to 8.2 overnight. Heartbreaking as she had her clowns for 7 years. Point being: look around see if there is anything out of the ordinary. Stray voltage? Smell your fish food, make sure it’s fresh. Check your test kits. API test kits are not all that great. Have a friend test your water. It’s all “cause and effect” good luck bud.

I live in an apartment and never use bug spray or harsh chemicals of any kind. After starting my reef I haven’t used Windex or anything that could potentially harm the water to the best of my knowledge.

Nothing smelled out of the ordinary.

Could the food have gone bad? I live in Texas and it’s still warm here. I put the food in the freezer as soon as I got home, but it took about an hour to get from the LFS to my home.

I took this video immediately before I fed them for the first time. This is almost 24 hours after I added them to the tank. They look happy. How could things change so quickly?

Davinci Clownfish 10/09/21 before feeding.

youtube.com

 

[JJHLH]

however


they brought in disease to the tank which affects new entrants, do quarantine and fallow now per the fish disease forum.
it doesnt matter if they were asymptomatic they still vectored in disease we can read it in the fish disease forum


if that wasn't the case, the forum would be slow v fast each day with new loss posts.

the secret to today's cycling is its not about filtration establishment, the bottles do that quickly. its about disease preps, see the fish disease forum for what happens in 5-8 mos if u skip fallow and qt.

I’m thinking that I may not add any more fish after this experience.

If I wanted to add corals at some point can they be added after a dip?

 

[ppatches24]

I’m thinking that I may not add any more fish after this experience.

If I wanted to add corals at some point can they be added after a dip?

Dont stop with with. They die.

you are also buying something the breeds and reproduces at an INSANE rate. so try some more fish dont to be hard on yourself.

 

[JJHLH]

I’m sorry that this happened to you, my thought is the acclimation time was too long. Our LFS told us to float acclimate for no more than 10 minutes and to drip acclimate for no more than 25 minutes. I was able to find their video about what they do and hopefully you do have any more issues. They also have a ton of other videos. They are so knowledgeable and have helped us so much with our reef tank. Good luck, don’t give up on the hobby we all have our fish losses!

You may be right. The LFS told me to acclimate for only 20 minutes. I took 2 hours after seeing the difference in parameters in an attempt to protect the fish from being shocked.

This was one of the videos I watched the night before I got the fish. She talks about a quick acclimation being 30-60 minutes if the parameters are close together, and slower if they aren’t. I thought I was following her advice since the LFS guy didn’t know the specific parameters of my tank. I probably overcomplicated it and should have just listened to my local guy.

 

[CorktownNano]

I’m not sure about the nitrates. Everything is brand new, including the sand. Nothing is used.

I cycled my tank with Microbacter QuickCycle and Microbacter StartXLM. I read the directions on the Brightwell website and followed them exactly. The only thing I didn’t test for was nitrites but I’ve read elsewhere that isn’t necessary.

I tested the water routinely at 11:30 every morning and logged the results using the Google Sheets app. I added the QuickCycle and StartXLM on 09/26/21. I also used Brightwell BioCubes and let them soak with a capful of the StartXLM overnight as the directions indicated. I did that on 09/25/21.

I added the fish on 10/08/21. That is when I performed the first water change of 25% as the directions told me to do before the fish went in.

Were the nitrates too high? Should I have waited until they came down below 10?

These are the directions I followed. They didn’t mention a number for the nitrates being too high that I can see.

Brightwell Aquatics - MicroBacter QuikCycl

brightwellaquatics.com

I‘m so confused as to what happened.

Funny, how I got the same advice: no need to test for nitrites! Glad I didn't follow it. Nitrites are deadly to fish, so you have to have 0 nitrites. It took a little over two weeks after my ammonia went to zero before my nitrites disappeared. For those two-three weeks, nitrites were around 500 ppm and then they went to zero overnight. (Actually, they went to zero yesterday; I established the tank on 9/4/21.) During this time I also had nitrates testing at 35ppm (used Hanna checker); after a water change, they're down to 3.9 now. The presence of nitrates doesn't mean the absence of nitrites. I would check your nitrites before adding more fish. I don't think your tank is fully cycled.

 

[Karen00]

OP: So sorry for your loss! Try not to be so hard on yourself. You did a lot of research beforehand so kudos to you!

Hopefully this isn't seen as hijacking this thread but my question speaks to the OPs situation. I'm new as well but have been lucky that all of my fish and inverts have been at the same salinity so I just had to acclimate for temp and I was told to toss in a shot glass of my tank's water into the bag every 5 mins for 30 mins then put them in the tank. All of mine were from lfs's so I didn't have to worry about ammonia. Having said that I'm still confused as to:
1. If the water is greater than 2ppt salinity divide (which sounds like the OPs issue as it was stated the store was at 31ppt and the Ops tank is 35ppt) and
2. If they've been in shipping for awhile making ammonia a possible issue. In the case of #1 do you drip acclimated!are for a day in the bag with a bubbler or do the fish go in a separate tank? For #2 where ammonia is a possibility do you immediately take them out and put them in new saltwater matching temp and salinity and then acclimate (either for the day if the salinity spread is greater than 2ppt or 30 mins if salinity is within 2ppt)?

I read most of the comments but didn't see direct answers to these as it was suggested that it could be one or the other or both.

 

[Arthacker87]

I’m sorry that this happened to you, my thought is the acclimation time was too long. Our LFS told us to float acclimate for no more than 10 minutes and to drip acclimate for no more than 25 minutes. I was able to find their video about what they do and hopefully you do have any more issues. They also have a ton of other videos. They are so knowledgeable and have helped us so much with our reef tank. Good luck, don’t give up on the hobby we all have our fish losses!

He's alone in a video wearing a mask? Must love his fish....

 

[Kobadinsky]

He's alone in a video wearing a mask? Must love his fish....

They are filming it at their store location so yes he’s still wearing a mask.

 

[Arthacker87]

They are filming it at their store location so yes he’s still wearing a mask.

Eh

 

[Lasse]

I tested the salinity of the water in the bag before I started the drip. It was 31.5. You are probably right. It was quite a bit lower than my tank‘s which was 35 when I put them in.

I could have easily taken some water out of my tank and replaced it with RODI to lower the salinity if I had know this was going to be such a problem.

It is not your salinities fault. That rise will not kill any fish

To me, 30 minutes is better, but also salinity at 1.033 is high for what I assume will become a reef tank, usually 1.030 is max for reef tanks whereas 1.025 is better

He measure in PSU not specific gravity 35 psu is perfect

I added the fish on 10/08/21. That is when I performed the first water change of 25% as the directions told me to do before the fish went in.

Here is some interesting - did you use Reversed Osmosis water or tap water for the salt mix.

Also your NO3 readings went up from around 10 to 20 over one day. Some questions about this, Did you measure your NO3 the 8/10/21 before or after the WC? Before or after the introduction of your fish? Before or after your feeding?

t’s not. I’m just curious how they got there in a sterile tank. Secondly, the day you introduced your fish into the tank your your nitrates more than doubled to 23.4 Now I’m really curious!!!

He has probably no NO3 - it is the NO2 that interfere with the NO3 measurement. Please see this post for explanations . In the second part

The importance of nitrite measurements in a reef aquarium

There have been a lot of threads about nitrification and cycling lately. IMO - the most important measurements tool you have in order to indicate if your cycle is done or not is the nitrite level. It is a rather stable tool and will give stable results with few interferences. One of the myths...

www.reef2reef.com

Could the food have gone bad? I live in Texas and it’s still warm here. I put the food in the freezer as soon as I got home, but it took about an hour to get from the LFS to my home.

Could or could - yea but not likely - 1 hour will not destroy the food IMO

Funny, how I got the same advice: no need to test for nitrites! Glad I didn't follow it. Nitrites are deadly to fish, so you have to have 0 nitrites. It took a little over two weeks after my ammonia went to zero before my nitrites disappeared. For those two-three weeks, nitrites were around 500 ppm and then they went to zero overnight. (Actually, they went to zero yesterday; I established the tank on 9/4/21.) During this time I also had nitrates testing at 35ppm (used Hanna checker). The presence of nitrates doesn't mean the absence of nitrites. I would check your nitrites before adding more fish. I don't think your tank is fully cycled.

Nitrite is not as toxic in saltwater as it is in freshwater. Nitrite poisoning is - IMO - unlikely in this case. Please see the above post reference for more explanations. NH4 toxicity - in the aquarium - not the bag - could be a cause but it is not sure it is that way

IMO - the acclimation is not the cause of this problem - because they look fine till the feeding the next day. 30 minutes after feeding - the first signs show up. But I´m not still convinced that it is a classic NH3 toxicity. It is probably some toxic response but from what. Any stuff on your hands? How much did you feed with - what is a little for you? Any scented candles? Air freshers?

Another question - do any of you in the household wape ? No bug spraying outdoors? It is probably something in you water - but what?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

nitrites are not deadly to marine fish, that's freshwater but not reefing, see this thread of 20 pages all nitrite positive starts

How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

Updated Cycling Science in Action This is a testless reef tank cycling thread, the only one from any board. If you ever had trouble with reef tank cycling in the past, you won't any longer after working some jobs with us. chances are you are using/about to use a method of reef tank cycling...

www.reef2reef.com

also Randy's article stating why its not a big deal in marine setups. the reason its important to know nitrite didn't cause anything is to prevent missing finding the real cause. if nitrite was in play, the first sentence in Randy's article would be that low level nitrite is dangerous and should be tested for.

 

[JJHLH]

Here is some interesting - did you use Reversed Osmosis water or tap water for the salt mix.

I used RODI water for the salt mix (AccuraSea 1) and it tested 0 TDS.

Also your NO3 readings went up from around 10 to 20 over one day. Some questions about this, Did you measure your NO3 the 8/10/21 before or after the WC? Before or after the introduction of your fish? Before or after your feeding?

I tested Nitrates on 10/4 at 10.8.

I tested them next time on 10/8 at 23.4. That was the morning that I bought the fish. Ammonia had reached 0. I performed a 25% water change that afternoon before the fish went into my tank.

He has probably no NO3 - it is the NO2 that interfere with the NO3 measurement. Please see this post for explanations . In the second part

The importance of nitrite measurements in a reef aquarium

There have been a lot of threads about nitrification and cycling lately. IMO - the most important measurements tool you have in order to indicate if your cycle is done or not is the nitrite level. It is a rather stable tool and will give stable results with few interferences. One of the myths...

www.reef2reef.com

I didn‘t test for nitrites. This was the only instruction that I failed to follow. Maybe that was a mistake. I don’t know because I’ve read elsewhere that it isn’t necessary to test for this.

Could or could - yea but not likely - 1 hour will not destroy the food IMO.

I wouldn’t think so either but everything went bad shortly after feeding them. Might just be a coincidence. I only fed them a small amount of half of one of the frozen cubes. I dissolved it in water from the tank and fed the fish with a pipette after turning off the pump and powerhead for a short period. Small being less than a quarter of one of the cubes. The LFS guy suggested feeding half a cube per day and the fish ate much less than that. I added the food slowly to see how they responded to it and they weren’t that interested. The female had a few bites but the small male didn’t eat any that I could see.

IMO - the acclimation is not the cause of this problem - because they look fine till the feeding the next day. 30 minutes after feeding - the first signs show up. But I´m not still convinced that it is a classic NH3 toxicity. It is probably some toxic response but from what. Any stuff on your hands? How much did you feed with - what is a little for you? Any scented candles? Air freshers?

I wash my hands several times a day with Dawn dish soap. I do this because I play the piano and like to keep the keys clean. I try to make sure the soap is washed off my hands and I use a paper towel to dry them off. I also try to keep my hands out of the tank as much as possible. Although when I fed them I took off the glass cover and my hands were in the tank briefly. Maybe there was some soap still on my hands that I wasn’t aware of.

No candles or air fresheners.

Another question - do any of you in the household wape ? No bug spraying outdoors? It is probably something in you water - but what?

No bug spraying or vaping either, and my windows were closed.

 

[Lasse]

How large are your aquarium? 1/4 cube is around 1 gram. Of this is around 20% protein ->0.200 g or 200mg. Of this 200 mg protein - around 16% is N - it means that you put in around 32 mg pure N. If all of that was converted into NH4 (which is unlikely) - it means that you have put in around 40 mg NH4 into your system. If your system is around 100 L - it means that you from the food you put in should have 0.4 mg/l (ppm) NH4 (in worst case) With a pH of 8.1 you will have around 0.02 ppm NH3. If you not have had other N inputs than the small food addition - I think we can role out toxic ammoniac (NH3).

Sincerely Lasse

 

[JJHLH]

How large are your aquarium? 1/4 cube is around 1 gram. Of this is around 20% protein ->0.200 g or 200mg. Of this 200 mg protein - around 16% is N - it means that you put in around 32 mg pure N. If all of that was converted into NH4 (which is unlikely) - it means that you have put in around 40 mg NH4 into your system. If your system is around 100 L - it means that you from the food you put in should have 0.4 mg/l (ppm) NH4 (in worst case) With a pH of 8.1 you will have around 0.02 ppm NH3. If you not have had other N inputs than the small food addition - I think we can role out toxic ammoniac (NH3).

Sincerely Lasse

I have a 10 gallon tank.

One thing I forgot to mention is that the female fish had a long stringy piece of poop attached to her yesterday afternoon. Maybe the fish had parasites and the stress of the move pushed them over the edge. I really don’t know.

I feel bad about this whole thing. I guess I’ll leave my tank fishless for 45-90 days since it has disease in it now.

Can I put a couple of small Zoa frags in it a few weeks from now or should I just leave it completely empty for a while?

 

[MaxTremors]

This is more likely, usually 2 hours of acclimation is bad for fish because ammonia spikes quickly. Next time try just a temperature acclimation and do that for 30 minutes with fish. Coral needs 30 minutes but drip imo

Corals should not be drip acclimated. They do much better if you just float for 20 minutes, dip, rinse, and then put in the tank. Fish it’s arguable about drip acclimating, and inverts should absolutely be drip acclimated, but corals should not.

 

[MaxTremors]

Sounds to me almost like they asphyxiated from lack of oxygen. Do you have a lot of surface movement or a skimmer? If not, with it being a new tank, you could be having a bacteria bloom (is the water cloudy at all?), which will use up all of the dissolved oxygen and suffocate your fish.

 

[JJHLH]

Sounds to me almost like they asphyxiated from lack of oxygen. Do you have a lot of surface movement or a skimmer? If not, with it being a new tank, you could be having a bacteria bloom (is the water cloudy at all?), which will use up all of the dissolved oxygen and suffocate your fish.

I don’t have a protein skimmer.

There probably wasn’t enough surface agitation to begin with, but after the first fish perished I adjusted the return nozzle so that it was pointed at the surface causing a lot of agitation. This was about 12 hours before the larger female perished, so it didn’t seem to solve whatever problem was occurring with her.

I also had a thin piece of glass laying on my net cover which may have impeded gas exchange, but it was far from an airtight fit as there was a 1/16 inch gap on all sides.

Both fish were trying their best to get to the surface at the end, gulping for air, so you may be right about the asphyxiation.

The water was very clear the entire time. No clouding at all.