Disaster

[ThanhLe]

Sounds like classic ammonia poisoning or salinity shock. Ammonia is usually from too long in the bag acclimating. Ammonia build up in the bag burns gill cells and it is downhill from there, Symptoms often present a day or so after introduction w/ death shortly after. Most common is shipped fish though where they've been bagged for a day or two.

For salinity, most fish stores run really low--like 20-30 ppt. Fish can handle a sudden drop in salinity okay but a sudden rise is deadly. They can really only handle a jump of 2ppt per day or so. Going from fish store salinity to your tank's salinity would have required several days of slowly raising the salinity (I do this by evaporation). Fish stores never tell you this when they discuss acclimation. Always ask the salinity and, better yet, test yourself.

Another good reason for a quarantine tank/container. Allows you to match salinity and then raise over time slowly. Much less stress on the fish to match salinities and release immediately.

Sorry for your loss. They looked like fine fish.

My supplier quarantine fishes for me and they keep them at 20 ppt. Their advice is to drip for 4 hours to match my tank salinity which is 34.5 and they are all fine swimming in my tanks. Fish can handle salinity jump if done correctly.

 

[Lasse]

I have a 10 gallon tank.

I got the impression (of the pictures) that it was bigger. This change the whole thing.

With that low amount of water - my calculation can indicate a toxic level of NH3 (ammoniac). The gulping for air indicate this too. I´m rather sure that it is no infectious disease. Same signs from both fish during same time period, the speed of development (healthy -> death) indicate intoxication IMO, It can also be a combination of low oxygen saturation and free NH3

IMO the stringy white pop in new fish do not automatically sign internal disease. It can be a result of starvation and stress too.

If this had been freshwater - your course of events and observations would directly point to nitrite poisoning. However I do not think that your NO2 is as high as it demands in saltwater for this chain of events. My best guess - knowing the amount of water - would be free NH3 gas (maybe in combination with low oxygen saturation) - especially because it happens directly after your feeding. But I can´t say that I´m total sure of this

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Hermie]

They were beautiful fish and didn’t deserve this to be their fate.

The sad truth of it is, we've all had fish deaths under our care before.

 

[Hermie]

duplicate

 

[Duncan62]

My local fish store is 50 minutes away. I brought them straight home. I kept them in the bag while I did the drip method of adding water from the tank to the bag slowly over two hours to acclimate them to their new home.

I tested the salinity of the water in the bag before I started the drip. It was 31.5. You are probably right. It was quite a bit lower than my tank‘s which was 35 when I put them in.

I could have easily taken some water out of my tank and replaced it with RODI to lower the salinity if I had know this was going to be such a problem. I watched several YouTube videos on acclimating the fish and even asked the guy at the LFS, trying to do the right thing. My ignorance did them in.

They were beautiful fish and didn’t deserve this to be their fate.

Even coral acclimation shouldn't be 2 hours. 30 min max. Imo acclimation killed your fish. Who told you to keep them in the bag for so long. Also the drip acclimation isn't fast enough to keep temp stable. Ammonia certainly played a role but temp shock helped. A salinity differential of 2 ppt would be harmless with better acclimation procedure. Clowns are hardy. They should still be swimming. Good luck in the future. Being over cautious helped killed those fish.

 

[Garf]

If you can test nitrites, do so. It just cuts out a whole line of questions regarding cycling, toxicity, nitrate readings etc.

 

[brandon429]

No it doesn’t. Nitrate testing has no bearing here in a loss thread

he tracked ammonia drop after adding cycling bac, waited ten days to add two small fish, he did it right

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php

see how that says opposite


nitrate testing impact has no bearing here. Nitrites aren’t toxic we can clearly read above, don’t mislead.



‘If you can test nitrites, do so. It just cuts out a whole line of questions regarding cycling, toxicity’

that’s completely opposite of Randy’s article and there isn’t a replacement article for the claim. That reco omits clear mistesting that occurs on non digital test kits, you saw the recent post on the matter/two test kits for nitrite reporting totally opposite reads. Why omit that data?


false stall proponents mislead away from finding the real cause. He met the timelines from the bottle bac label on number of days to ready. A cycling charts ammonia drop date was met and it matches the data logs exactly, the bac were alive and fine.

best fit causative without having to make up things is acclimation or diseased fish which isn’t impossible from a pet store

 

[Garf]

No it doesn’t. Nitrate testing has no bearing here in a loss thread

he tracked ammonia drop after adding cycling bac, waited ten days to add two small fish, he did it right

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php

see how that says opposite of what you type


nitrate testing impact has no bearing here. Nitrites aren’t toxic we can clearly read above, don’t mislead.



‘If you can test nitrites, do so. It just cuts out a whole line of questions regarding cycling, toxicity’

that’s completely made up misinfo, it’s opposite of Randy’s article and you don’t have a replacement article for the claim.


false stall proponents mislead away from finding the real cause. He met the timelines from the bottle bac label on number of days to ready. A cycling charts ammonia drop date was met and it matches the data logs exactly, the bac were alive and fine.

best fit causative without having to make up things is acclimation or diseased fish which isn’t impossible from a pet store

I didn’t say it was related to his problem, re read, objectively.

 

[brandon429]

People need a clear start date for bottle bac cycles and they should all be done this way, he couldn’t have approached the cycle any better or with more careful timing—directly in line with Randy’s advice to not test nitrite and he proved ammonia control before starting


false stall hunts will mislead new aquarists for months regarding non digital testing, removing specific start date allowances and constantly claiming the common cycling chart isn’t reliable for timing but we know good and well it sure is.


false cycle stall umpires never never factor or mention disease risks, the pattern is nitrite hyperfocus always, to the exclusion of all other possibilities.

Nitrite Toxicity

Hey guys I have an aquarium system that has about 45gallons of water cycling so I Let it cycle for about week and I added seeded marine pure ceramic balls and the bacteria in a bottle. I had no choice but to add my 2 clownfish from my quarantine into the tank.. because I needed to put a sick...

www.reef2reef.com

look how plainly Randy addresses it again there, fully opposite of claims in this thread.

JJ don’t let anyone get you to doubting the cycle it was done, bottle bac work well. it’s been tested extensively. In no way can you rule out buying two diseased fish from a pet store plus acclimation stress.

 

[Garf]

People need a clear start date for bottle bac cycles and they should all be done this way, he couldn’t have approached the cycle any better or with more careful timing—directly in line with Randy’s advice to not test nitrite and he proved ammonia control before starting


false stall cycle umpires will mislead new aquarists for months regarding non digital testing, removing specific start date allowances and constantly claiming the common cycling chart isn’t reliable for timing but we know good and well it sure is.


false cycle stall umpires never never factor or mention disease risks, the pattern is nitrite hyperfocus always, to the exclusion of all other possibilities.

Nitrite Toxicity

Hey guys I have an aquarium system that has about 45gallons of water cycling so I Let it cycle for about week and I added seeded marine pure ceramic balls and the bacteria in a bottle. I had no choice but to add my 2 clownfish from my quarantine into the tank.. because I needed to put a sick...

www.reef2reef.com

look how plainly Randy addresses it again there, fully opposite of claims in this thread.

Also from his article, this snippet which implies the main body of nitrite advice is directed towards a fully cycled reef, not a cycling one;

 

[brandon429]

additional supports to rule out cycling issues-

-Randy's article
-a common cycling chart that tracks out critical params (ammonia) based on # of days, met here.
-study online for one hour every fish-in cycle you can find. That's fish and bottle bac and dry rocks and feed on day 1, there are over fifty thousand documented online. post here any losses you find, like this thread.
-study online for one hour across forums for fast cycles that were bottle bac fed and dosed, and charted for ammonia drop, where two clowns died on day ten but weren't added day one.

the fact you arent able to link 3 or even another one beyond this thread means we aren't on the continuum of cycle timed losses, there isn't one.


bad cycle assessments here don't come from a pattern of personal works at all, or observations or collected study.

there is no pattern, study or link succession that can be provided to show cycling as the loss cause here. so, we'd move past cycling and into the other two uncontrolled variables.

If I searched for one hour can I find a patterns on disease loss in clowns from a pet store? yes. What about acclimation stresses? many.

cycle-timed losses? post some. What happened here is mighty rare

 

[Garf]

additional supports to rule out cycling issues-

-Randy's article
-a common cycling chart that tracks out critical params (ammonia) based on # of days, met here.
-study online for one hour every fish-in cycle you can find. That's fish and bottle bac and dry rocks and feed on day 1, there are over fifty thousand documented online. post here any losses you find, like this thread.
-study online for one hour across forums for fast cycles that were bottle bac fed and dosed, and charted for ammonia drop, where two clowns died on day ten but weren't added day one.

the fact you arent able to link 3 or even another one beyond this thread means we aren't on the continuum of cycle timed losses, there isn't one.


bad cycle assessments here don't come from a pattern of personal works at all, or observations or collected study.

there is no pattern, study or link succession that can be provided to show cycling as the loss cause here. so, we'd move past cycling and into the other two uncontrolled variables.

I'd ask if you were interested in seeing counter studies above, such as hundreds of reefs started on or before day ten/no losses/ but I know you've seen the links already we have hundreds and hundreds of examples to post that this isn't a cycling issue.

If this is addressed to me, you are missing the point. A pic of a sky blue vial, indicating non detectable nitrite would have eliminated any nitrite related posts. This is a problem with not testing for it. If the OP can supply such a pic, excellent, back to the real cause of his woes. Once again, re read post, here I will help you;

Disaster

Sounds like classic ammonia poisoning or salinity shock. Ammonia is usually from too long in the bag acclimating. Ammonia build up in the bag burns gill cells and it is downhill from there, Symptoms often present a day or so after introduction w/ death shortly after. Most common is shipped...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[brandon429]

If this was a fish-in cycle on day one/uncharted like most cycles I'd honestly buy the possibility the bac were dead. several alternate markers for cycle safety are met however.

what if this is like that one time we battled eight pages on a false ammonia stall post, Api .25 with quick fish death and then on the last page he tells us he cemented his sump with home depot mold proof silicone—the false cycle thing delayed us eight pages of crucial fix finding.

 

[Garf]

I don’t have a protein skimmer.

There probably wasn’t enough surface agitation to begin with, but after the first fish perished I adjusted the return nozzle so that it was pointed at the surface causing a lot of agitation. This was about 12 hours before the larger female perished, so it didn’t seem to solve whatever problem was occurring with her.

I also had a thin piece of glass laying on my net cover which may have impeded gas exchange, but it was far from an airtight fit as there was a 1/16 inch gap on all sides.

Both fish were trying their best to get to the surface at the end, gulping for air, so you may be right about the asphyxiation.

The water was very clear the entire time. No clouding at all.

Do you calibrate your chosen method of reading salinity? Are you sure the water isn’t too warm /cold?

 

[JJHLH]

Even coral acclimation shouldn't be 2 hours. 30 min max. Imo acclimation killed your fish. Who told you to keep them in the bag for so long. Also the drip acclimation isn't fast enough to keep temp stable. Ammonia certainly played a role but temp shock helped. A salinity differential of 2 ppt would be harmless with better acclimation procedure. Clowns are hardy. They should still be swimming. Good luck in the future. Being over cautious helped killed those fish.

I watched this video in preparation the night before I got the fish. In retrospect I wish I had never seen it and just followed the advice from my LFS guy instead. My beautiful fish would probably still be alive.

 

[Garf]

I watched this video in preparation the night before I got the fish. In retrospect I wish I had never seen it and just followed the advice from my LFS guy instead. My beautiful fish would probably still be alive.

Don’t see much wrong with her advice, except perhaps missing the dip, quarantine bit. Going by this vid, I don’t really understand the 2 hr acclimation, unless your tank pH was really low, like 7.6ish.

 

[JJHLH]

JJ don’t let anyone get you to doubting the cycle it was done, bottle bac work well. it’s been tested extensively. In no way can you rule out buying two diseased fish from a pet store plus acclimation stress.

Thank you Brandon. I think you are correct that the cycle was fine.

I’m pretty sure now that the fish died because of my poor acclimation procedure. I had conflicting information and unfortunately made the wrong choice. I wish I had simply listened to the advice my LFS guy had given me instead of overthinking things.

Hopefully others can learn from my mistake and save their fish from the same horrible fate.

 

[Lasse]

I watched this video in preparation the night before I got the fish. In retrospect I wish I had never seen it and just followed the advice from my LFS guy instead. My beautiful fish would probably still be alive.

I still no believe that what you did 24 hour before the problem cause the same pattern of illness in two fish 30 minutes after you feeding them for the first time. My experiences says that when something happens suddenly and with the same pattern for more than one fish - you should look at incidents happens just before the event - at least in 98 % of these cases - the explanation is found just before the event itself.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Just a Wrasse.]

So.. to me, the male died because of it being stuck on the filter intake for too long (Maybe flow being fast and not used to it yet), the female I can’t see why she would have died. I’d leave it a week and keep testing for spikes every day at the same time if possible.

Agreed. Seems likley.

 

[Just a Wrasse.]

I still no believe that what you did 24 hour before the problem cause the same pattern of illness in two fish 30 minutes after you feeding them for the first time. My experiences says that when something happens suddenly and with the same pattern for more than one fish - you should look at incidents happens just before the event - at least in 98 % of these cases - the explanation is found just before the event itself.

Sincerely Lasse

Agreed, with age comes wisdom.