Discussion: Would You Rather 0 N or 0 P

[GARRIGA]

Both coral and zooxanthellae need P and N…so you don’t want zero or even close to zero for either.

There’s no such thing as zero fit either. Filtration isn’t as efficient with those as with ammonia. As long as food is being intrigued then there’s always nutrients being introduced. Hobby just came to that conclusion after many went ultra low nutrient which was based on ultra low feeding.

Been running an experiment for a year plus. Letting nutrients fluctuate and constantly going to zero or close to it. Only issues I get is when I reduce feeding. No WC. No sump. No skimmer. Just tons on filtration compared to volume of water and feed 2-4 times or more per day.

No corals other than a sacrificial Xenia as a canary in the coal mine gesture. Algae and cyano have gone through their cycles. Now just dealing with GHA which is my first until I figure how to handle it naturally. It is after all an experimental tank but no dinos which is what many fear most. Yet even with those some can be filtered out at night with low micron filtration.

 

[Poseidon03]

There’s no such thing as zero fit either. Filtration isn’t as efficient with those as with ammonia. As long as food is being intrigued then there’s always nutrients being introduced. Hobby just came to that conclusion after many went ultra low nutrient which was based on ultra low feeding.

Been running an experiment for a year plus. Letting nutrients fluctuate and constantly going to zero or close to it. Only issues I get is when I reduce feeding. No WC. No sump. No skimmer. Just tons on filtration compared to volume of water and feed 2-4 times or more per day.

No corals other than a sacrificial Xenia as a canary in the coal mine gesture. Algae and cyano have gone through their cycles. Now just dealing with GHA which is my first until I figure how to handle it naturally. It is after all an experimental tank but no dinos which is what many fear most. Yet even with those some can be filtered out at night with low micron filtration.

I went through GHA in an older tank, just keep your phosphates unreadable and it will slowly die off.

 

[GARRIGA]

I went through GHA in an older tank, just keep your phosphates unreadable and it will slowly die off.

Been my experience as well but I’m constantly stress testing to validate my theories and would like to find CUC that can also handle it. All this testing started in the 70s but now implementing elements not available then plus ultimate goal is a monster tank with little maintenance due to my work and life style.

 

[Poseidon03]

Been my experience as well but I’m constantly stress testing to validate my theories and would like to find CUC that can also handle it. All this testing started in the 70s but now implementing elements not available then plus ultimate goal is a monster tank with little maintenance due to my work and life style.

I went through a lot with it. Magnesium helped, urchins helped, but it just grows way too fast. I have a 240 and my maintenance is minimal. I think I will ramp up my water changes tho just so I can have a buffer for potential issues that I'm not testing for.

 

[GARRIGA]

I went through a lot with it. Magnesium helped, urchins helped, but it just grows way too fast. I have a 240 and my maintenance is minimal. I think I will ramp up my water changes tho just so I can have a buffer for potential issues that I'm not testing for.

Have had GHA before but goes away. This time it’s getting stronger but I’m back to carbon dosing to see if going over recommendation will lower P. Has in the past.

Had an urchin but after a few months it perished. Tried supplemental feedings but I think it just starved to death.

My margaritas are procreating but it’s sporadic and those not exactly making a dent in regular glass algae. Perhaps I need to add more.

Had added 1200 amphipods but never saw them outside the substrate and now don’t think any survived. Couldn’t kill those when I had them in freshwater. Might have to try them again.

Looking to add small hermits. Supposedly they eat GHA but LFS telling me they don’t.

Might also try a blenny. At this point more of a curiosity because in the bigger tank I will have tangs and a fox face but would love to see CUC resolve it.

 

[GARRIGA]

I went through a lot with it. Magnesium helped, urchins helped, but it just grows way too fast. I have a 240 and my maintenance is minimal. I think I will ramp up my water changes tho just so I can have a buffer for potential issues that I'm not testing for.

BTW, I should test my magnesium. No clue where that’s at. Going to send an ICP out as I’m curious of my water conditions for items I can’t test now that it’s past a year of testing.

 

[Uncle99]

Either combination is bad.
They are to be consistent in their availability as they build our micro-diversity.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Can I just add to this discussion that you all are forgetting the most obvious reason to have detectable nitrates and phosphates.
The main reason we need no3 and po4 detectable at all times is to keep a balance bacterial community. No3, po4 and dissolved organic carbon are the three main ingredient to a healthy ecosystem, once one of the three becomes limited by effect this will make most of the heterotrophic bacteria go dormant and allow for other organisms to take they’re place in the previous comments it seems algae is the organisms that is taking their place although if the cell is present dinoflagellates can also become dominant under those conditions.
if you all were do do some homework you could conclude that system that have detectable nutrients and are carbon doses on regular basis are most of the times algae free. This is due to the heterotrophic bacteria being the main organism in a system outcompeting nuisance algae.

 

[Spare time]

Perhaps phosphate readings not what we should be seeking. Tropic Marin now offering a feed because supposedly corals can’t efficiently absorb the phosphates in solution. Oddly, this mimics how corals on the reef obtain it from detritus. Perhaps we remove too much detritus, too.

I’m also of the camp that thinks we shouldn’t be chasing nitrates and perhaps a constant feeding will provide the ammonium they actually seek. Nitrates just being something that can be tracked since ammonia will go to zero quickly in a tank with a well established biological filter. Nitrates, not so fast. Just feed more often.

Idk, tropic marin likes to make a lot of unfounded claims about coral biology/ecology that just so happen to make all other brands' products not work. They have a lot of talk about how "corals can't effetely do x so buy our product." Reminds me of those digestive "detox" products that claim your body is contains "toxic fecal matter" that needs to be removed from the body and the only effect way to do this is to buy their product (ignoring that feces production is normal and healthy and that our bodies indeed have an effective way of removing it).

 

[Spare time]

I run 0 ish nitrates in my tank constantly but this doesn't represent how much nitrogen is entering the tanks (via fish metabolic waste, reef energy, and other foods) that are being taken up before they have a chance to become nitrate. Its not as practical to do this with phosphate.

 

[GARRIGA]

Idk, tropic marin likes to make a lot of unfounded claims about coral biology/ecology that just so happen to make all other brands' products not work. They have a lot of talk about how "corals can't effetely do x so buy our product." Reminds me of those digestive "detox" products that claim your body is contains "toxic fecal matter" that needs to be removed from the body and the only effect way to do this is to buy their product (ignoring that feces production is normal and healthy and that our bodies indeed have an effective way of removing it).

Don’t know how valid their claims other than they are saying they are replicating fish detritus falling on corals and if that turns out to be true then we should stop being so concerned with fish poop. Logically speaking. Makes sense they might be digesting detritus. Many organism do and their symbiotic zooxanthella might benefit from it.

Curious to see if they have science to back their claims.

 

[Spare time]

Don’t know how valid their claims other than they are saying they are replicating fish detritus falling on corals and if that turns out to be true then we should stop being so concerned with fish poop. Logically speaking. Makes sense they might be digesting detritus. Many organism do and their symbiotic zooxanthella might benefit from it.

Curious to see if they have science to back their claims.

I am not bashing tropic marin in particular as many, if not most, reefing companies do this. However, it seems that people believe tropic marin's words without second thought when it comes to their marketing (i.e. brown crud in salt is bad and doesn't happen with tropic marin, or corals can't effectively use nitrate so you must buy our carbon dosing product as all coral feed on bacteria). They just seem to get special treatment in this hobby and I don't really know why outside of BRS being their best "influencer" in terms of selling their products.

 

[Lbrdsoxfan]

Neither, but I'm old school. Too many problems or the OMG my numbers bottomed out, now what issues....

 

[hart24601]

I have bottomed both out a few times over the years. At least in my systems 0 nitrate the sps started slowly losing color, pretty easy to correct and not a big deal to bounce back. When I have bottomed phosphate acros skin got “dry” looking, thin and brown. Much longer recovery as they also seem more sensitive to phosphate fluctuations.

Truly bottoming out like above is different than just testing 0 phosphate if you’re feeding many times a day or have a lot of algae growing but are adding a lot with feeding. With enough coral though it’s pretty easy to bottom both out although with chaeto I find I have to add phosphate more than nitrate. With carbon dosing it was the opposite for me at least.

 

[hart24601]

I am not bashing tropic marin in particular as many, if not most, reefing companies do this. However, it seems that people believe tropic marin's words without second thought when it comes to their marketing (i.e. brown crud in salt is bad and doesn't happen with tropic marin, or corals can't effectively use nitrate so you must buy our carbon dosing product as all coral feed on bacteria). They just seem to get special treatment in this hobby and I don't really know why outside of BRS being their best "influencer" in terms of selling their products.

While not infallible with the example of the salt issue being a legit failure, TM has stood above other companies due in large part to their fantastic head chemist Hans who has done the legwork to really make solid products and backs up their claims. Other companies blatantly are wrong or lie in product claims. I won’t call them out but if you search our chemistry guru Randy’s posts you can find those places. It’s one reason lots of people, including myself, put TM a bit above other places although honestly I don’t use any of their products at the moment but have and been happy.

 

[GARRIGA]

I am not bashing tropic marin in particular as many, if not most, reefing companies do this. However, it seems that people believe tropic marin's words without second thought when it comes to their marketing (i.e. brown crud in salt is bad and doesn't happen with tropic marin, or corals can't effectively use nitrate so you must buy our carbon dosing product as all coral feed on bacteria). They just seem to get special treatment in this hobby and I don't really know why outside of BRS being their best "influencer" in terms of selling their products.

I get that and why hopefully they provide the science. As for brown crud. That can be filtered out and yes. All companies market themselves as being unique but in the end there’s little today that can be unique. Why I mostly stick to the basics and go with what in my experience has worked for me.

 

[Someshmuk]

Honestly i'd rather go the opposite direction for both phosphate and nitrate. Chasing 0 for either causes quick and overt negative reactions from the corals. I've heard enough anecdotal evidence from GFO's bottoming out phosphates causing widespread coral dieoff to media reactors pulverizing the media and dumping aluminum into the tank that I will steer clear from tumbling media or GFO.

Carbon dosing was the last experiment I tried and tbh I didnt see any noticable visible changes besides my wallet being 20 bucks lighter

Implementing nutrient control systems like a protein skimmer, ATS, or refugium for the amount of bioload you're putting on your system is the way to go. So far its been at least a year since I've tested either parameter and I can trust that my protein skimmer and ATS are managing my nutrients accordingly.

 

[MarsReefer]

I have a new tank with dry rock and it sucks up my phosphates as fast as I can add them. The dinos are relentless and nothing I do gets phosphates above 0.
I’m dosing my tank to 0.1 every day now.

0 phosphates are definitely no good.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I have a new tank with dry rock and it sucks up my phosphates as fast as I can add them. The dinos are relentless and nothing I do gets phosphates above 0.
I’m dosing my tank to 0.1 every day now.

0 phosphates are definitely no good.

I’ve been in a similar situation, I find that adding double or triple dose effective I’m this situation

 

[92Miata]

Corals don't give a crap about nitrate. They want nitrogen, and they'd much rather get it from ammonia than nitrate because it's a much higher energy form. Nitrate levels are a backstop for when you're not putting enough ammonia into the water.

Corals can (and do) directly uptake phosphate, and die relatively rapidly if they can't get it.