Diver's Den Fish without QT???

[Humblefish]

How will you handle the fact that some/many tanks already contain latent ich? I can see somebody complaining that one of your fish brought ich, when it was actually already there to begin with. Will you require some kind of 'certification' from your customers? BTW, more power to you ..... this'd be a 'lie down 'till the feeling goes away' for me

That's a very valid concern. Also, what happens when someone buys fish from me and shortly thereafter adds a coral frag with velvet tomonts encysted?

I've always wanted to see if selling properly quarantined fish would work. This is just something I have to do to know for sure. If it blows up in my face, then my business idea will probably be short-lived.

 

[paphater]

I think, depending on the markup of the fish, a seven day guarantee on the fish purchased would suffice. I think the selling point should be on the treatment and precautions taken for the specific fish, not a guarantee on what is happening within the tank.

Perhaps you could include a certificate of some sort of what QT precautions were taken with each fish.

 

[ca1ore]

If it blows up in my face, then my business idea will probably be short-lived.

Regardless, I commend you for trying!!!! I will occasionally QT fish for friends, but on a small scale and with a boatload of caveats.

 

[Orcus Varuna]

That's a very valid concern. Also, what happens when someone buys fish from me and shortly thereafter adds a coral frag with velvet tomonts encysted?

I've always wanted to see if selling properly quarantined fish would work. This is just something I have to do to know for sure. If it blows up in my face, then my business idea will probably be short-lived.

I don’t think it will fail the same premise has been used by Adam at bc with great success. He doesn’t get blamed if a tank has red bugs to begin with and the same goes for crypt or other infectious agents.

I think the state of acquiring healthy livestock is in such a bad place that just getting healthy specimens again is good enough for me and many other reefers. The first 5 years I was in the hobby I thought a qt was an unnecessary luxury and went functionally disease free with all fish living for the duration of my first tank (minus jumping and bully deaths) and I was not careful at all adding fish and corals from everywhere. Now in the last 5 years the fish come in in such rough shape that that I either qt extensively if I have the room or buy from divers den and roll the dice as they sell the healthiest fish ime. Not perfect every time but healthy enough to where I can get them eating and adjusted enough to let their immune system take over. But the opportunity to get even healthier fish is a very tantalizing proposition even if my tank isn’t a disease free zone.

 

[ca1ore]

I doHe doesn’t get blamed if a tank has red bugs to begin with and the same goes for crypt or other infectious agents.

I don't think it's even close to the same thing. Red bugs are quite apparent, but ich (particularly) can exist in latent form and the tank owner be clueless that it's there. A new QT'd fish arrives and suddenly gets ich ..... what do you think the novice reaction will be?

The first 5 years I was in the hobby I thought a qt was an unnecessary luxury and went functionally disease free with all fish living for the duration of my first tank (minus jumping and bully deaths) and I was not careful at all adding fish and corals from everywhere. Now in the last 5 years the fish come in in such rough shape that that I either qt extensively if I have the room or buy from divers den and roll the dice as they sell the healthiest fish ime.

I find that the 'variety' of diseases has grown, but not the frequency. Back in the '90s I seemed to always be battling ich. Not nearly so much these days. I QT now mainly for the things I didn't have to worry about back then - uronema, flukes, even velvet.

 

[Rctreece]

I am still very new to the Reef hobby but I read that this was a good way to handle new fish.
1. QT tank for a minimum of 21 days.
2. Prazi Pro first for seven days.
3. 50% water change on day 7
4. Copper treatment after water change.
5. Another dose of Prazi pro.
6. Monitor fish for the rest of the 21 days. If no sign of trouble and fish eating then add to DT.

I have six fish in my tank and all have done very well with this technique. I should of had 9 but 3 Chromis died in transit.
I do dip corals in Bayer but have no quarantined nor have I with the CUC.

 

[Humblefish]

I am still very new to the Reef hobby but I read that this was a good way to handle new fish.
1. QT tank for a minimum of 21 days.
2. Prazi Pro first for seven days.
3. 50% water change on day 7
4. Copper treatment after water change.
5. Another dose of Prazi pro.
6. Monitor fish for the rest of the 21 days. If no sign of trouble and fish eating then add to DT.

I recommend tweaking your QT protocol to reflect the following changes:

1. QT for a minimum of 6 weeks
2. Once the fish starts eating, begin slowly raising your copper level over a 5-7 day period. I recommend using this Hanna checker to ensure your copper level reaches therapeutic: https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/coppe...truments-high-range-copper-checker-hi702.454/
3. Once you have reached therapeutic copper, maintain that level for 30 continuous days. Then do water changes and/or use a poly filter/Cuprisorb to remove copper.
4. Dose Prazipro, wait about a week, do a 20-25% water change and then repeat dosage.
5. 72 hours after the second dosage the fish should be ready for the DT.

The reason to start copper first is diseases it treats (notably velvet) are a lot more dangerous to the fish than diseases Prazipro addresses (i.e. flukes, turbellarians).

 

[Rctreece]

I recommend tweaking your QT protocol to reflect the following changes:

1. QT for a minimum of 6 weeks
2. Once the fish starts eating, begin slowly raising your copper level over a 5-7 day period. I recommend using this Hanna checker to ensure your copper level reaches therapeutic: https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/coppe...truments-high-range-copper-checker-hi702.454/
3. Once you have reached therapeutic copper, maintain that level for 30 continuous days. Then do water changes and/or use a poly filter/Cuprisorb to remove copper.
4. Dose Prazipro, wait about a week, do a 20-25% water change and then repeat dosage.
5. 72 hours after the second dosage the fish should be ready for the DT.

The reason to start copper first is diseases it treats (notably velvet) are a lot more dangerous to the fish than diseases Prazipro addresses (i.e. flukes, turbellarians).

Thanks for the tips. Here is the article that I use. It was on Advanced Aquarist.

Here is the ten basic equipment you will need for your quarantine system:
1.Quarantine tank: A cheap 10 gallon (40L) glass aquarium is sufficient for most small and medium sized fish. For larger fish (> 4"/15cm), consider a 20 or 29 gallon aquarium.
2.Heater: Any small, reliable submersible heater will suffice.
3.Thermometer: A cheap mercury-in-glass thermometer will do.
4.Filtration: Quarantine systems do not require complicated filtrations. In fact, you do not want to run advanced filtration that may interfere with potential treatments. All you need is a simple sponge filter driven by a cheap air pump. If you have a canister filter or hang-on power filter laying around, feel free to use it (without activated carbon).
5.Refractometer: I know many hobbyists still rely on swing-arm hydrometers to measure specific gravity. Do yourself a favor and purchase a refractometer. You will get far more accurate salinity measurements (required for some treatments).
6.Test kits: The two basic test kits you will need during the quarantine process are ammonia and copper. I would also recommend Seachem Ammonia Alert to provide addition warning of ammonia spikes. Ammonia poisoning is a very real threat to fish in small/new QT tanks and can kill quickly.
7.Medications: There are many medications available for treatment. I would consider the following three medications “the essentials”: Prazipro, Cupramine*, and Maracyn Two. These three medications are gentle, effectively combat most diseases, and work well together. I will explain more on their usage later in the article.
8.Decorations (for shelter): A variety of PVC pipes/fittings is all you need. Since you will treat your tank with medication, do not use live rock.
9.Light: No need for anything fancy. Even a desk lamp (preferably on a timer) will work as long as it does not overheat the water.
10.Salt mix and good (e.g. RO/DI) freshwater. Premix 5 to 10 gallons to have on hand for emergency water changes.

*I have since replaced Cupramine with chloroquine phosphate, which I find is easier to administer for single dose treatment of external parasites. Chloroquine is harder to acquire than Cupramine though, so if you can not find Chloroquine, Cupramine is still a viable substitute.

And here are the ten steps to receiving and quarantining new fish:
1.Place your sponge filter in your main tank or sump so that it cultivates nitrifying bacteria for a minimum of 2 weeks (the longer the better). There is no need to run the air pump during this "seeding" time.
2.When you're ready to purchase a new fish, first prepare your QT tank. Fill the QT tank with saltwater to match the salinity of your display tank. This water can be partially or fully comprised of water from your main tank. Move the sponge filter from your display tank to your QT tank. Run the air pump at this time. Install the heater and thermometer; Match the temperature to your main tank. Add the decorations.
3.Drip-acclimate your new fish with water from your QT tank.
4.Add your new fish to your QT tank. Let your fish rest for a day. You can attempt very light feeding several hours after introduction.
5.On day two, medicate with Prazipro. Follow the manufacturer's directions. Prazipro is pre-solubilized praziquental, a proven gentle medication that will cure fish of flukes and worms.
6.On day seven, perform a 50% water change with new saltwater only. Make sure the new water is the same salinity and temperature as your QT tank.

7.Begin your Cupramine medication after the water change. Cupramine is the gentlest copper-based medication on the market and will cure fish of ich, marine velvet, external parasites, and a number of other diseases. Again, follow the manufacturer's directions. This is particularly important for Cupramine because overdosing copper is deadly to fish. Test for copper levels to make sure you have dosed the right amount.
8.You can also re-dose Prazipro at this time. A single dose of praziquental may not kill some fluke species or flukes incubating in eggs. This is one of the few times you can safely break the manufacturer's directions (another will be cited next). Seachem discourages the use of other medications when administering Cupramine because they do not want to be liable for any adverse interactions with all the medications available. However praziquental has been proven safe to use in conjunction with Cupramine (and chloroquine**). Some aquarists rely on Cupramine to take care of stubborn "leftover" flukes, but I recommend a second dose of Prazipro since praziquental is safe to use with Cupramine. ** Note: While praziquental is safe with choloroquine, choloroquine has been shown to reduce the bio-availability of praziquental, so a second dose of praziquental during choloroquine treatment may prove ineffective.

9.Observe your fish over the next two weeks while the two medications are doing their job. If you see any signs of bacterial infection such as fin rot or cloudy eyes, administer Maracyn Two. Maracyn Two is a broad spectrum antibiotic that is safe to use with the other medications.

10.21 days after you first introduced your new fish to the QT tank, if the fish appears healthy and feeding, congratulations! Your fish is now ready for its new home in your display tank. Net your fish into a specimen container. Drip-acclimate from your display tank to the specimen container, then add your new fish to your display tank. Do not add water from your QT tank to your display tank.

Important additional notes: During the entire quarantine process, make sure you are testing for ammonia and measuring specific gravity daily. Top off the water as needed and perform water changes if ammonia levels begin to rise to dangerous levels. Never add neutralizers like Amquel or Seachem Prime to detoxify ammonia because they can greatly increase the toxicity of Cupramine. You will have to administer more Cupramine whenever you perform water changes; Add Cupramine in gradual increments and test copper levels so you don't overdose.
https://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/quarantining-marine-fish-made-simple

 

[ca1ore]

While I agree with most of it, there are some flaws in the approach .... most minor, one major. It has been accepted best practice for some years now to match QT water to the incoming bag water NOT to the salinity in your tank (unless, of course you run that at 1.018). This allows for a simple acclimation and avoidance of any dripping at all. Far easier on the fish, particularly if it has had a long journey. Bring salinity in the QT up to 1.025 over the course of days or even weeks.

 

[ChrisW]

Do these QT steps need to be done with clean up crews as well? Or an abbreviated version of QTing?

 

[Tanggy]

Do these QT steps need to be done with clean up crews as well? Or an abbreviated version of QTing?

Invertebrates are very sensitive to copper. If you are planning on treating with copper do not add any cleanup crew to your QT. If you are talking about QT your CC/coral, then let them go fallow (QT tank with no fish/meds) for a minimum of 76 days...

 

[ChrisW]

76???!!!! wow..ok. I was talking strictly clean up crews, crabs, snails, those guys. I assumed QTing fish requires different steps than QTing corals/inverts and should not be done simultaneously.
So speaking in terms of coral/inverts, are the proper steps QT in a fallow tank, maintain and monitor proper parameters for water in that 76 day window, dip, cut the plug, remount if necessary and then can be safely introduced into the display tank?

 

[Tanggy]

Yeah it's a pretty long time to wait. But I've dealt with velvet b4 and it's worth the wait. I have 2 QT: one for fish and the other for coral/CC in different rooms. Humblefish has a nice post/article on quarantining coral. If you get a chance do a search for it. When I get a new coral in, I usually dip it in Coral Rx. Leave it in QT for about 12 wks while maintaining water parameter (I usually take water from DT when I do water changes).

 

[ChrisW]

thank you for the input. Youre right, overall its worth the wait then having to deal with the alternative...
Will def read up on that post from Humblefish

 

[Neptune 555]

I have set up a ich free / velvet free tanks! IT IS A PITA!! I know what it takes.. so I will definitely purchase from you humble fish. I am sure my tanks are clean so worth the expense to me!!

Does anyone know what public aquariums follow for their process?

 

[jasonrusso]

Does anyone have fun anymore?

In my predator tank, I have a puffer, lion, eel, and angler. I feed them live grass shrimp as a treat. Am I supposed to keep them in a QT for 76 days? I don't know if you know the life cycle of shrimp, but they do not live that long.

I QT'd new arrivals, but at some point you need to ease up. Seriously, my puffer eats snails at will. How do you QT snails without them dying?

In my coral tank, I dip all new coral in Bayer. I had an aiptasia issue, but that was from the LFS where I bought one Tonga rock. Should I have QT'd the rock? Would the aiptasia die in QT? Thankfully berghia took care of that.

I don't have another tank with LED lights to house all new corals, snails, crabs, nudibranches, chaeto, frozen food etc. I don't think anyone does.

 

[Humblefish]

@jasonrusso It's a PITA, no doubt about it. And it does zap a lot of "fun" out of the hobby. I can't deny that either.

I guess it all comes down to your tolerance/threshold for risk.

 

[Orcus Varuna]

Does anyone have fun anymore?

In my predator tank, I have a puffer, lion, eel, and angler. I feed them live grass shrimp as a treat. Am I supposed to keep them in a QT for 76 days? I don't know if you know the life cycle of shrimp, but they do not live that long.

I QT'd new arrivals, but at some point you need to ease up. Seriously, my puffer eats snails at will. How do you QT snails without them dying?

In my coral tank, I dip all new coral in Bayer. I had an aiptasia issue, but that was from the LFS where I bought one Tonga rock. Should I have QT'd the rock? Would the aiptasia die in QT? Thankfully berghia took care of that.

I don't have another tank with LED lights to house all new corals, snails, crabs, nudibranches, chaeto, frozen food etc. I don't think anyone does.

I have found over the years that there are extremes for everything. The full qt and treat protocol @Humblefish outlines is required for absolute peace of mind but for me that is impossible at the moment. What I choose to do instead is qt fish when I can (if I can’t qt I exclusively buy from divers den, ORA direct, or sustainable aquatics), buy my clean-up crews from reef cleaners (never had an issue brining in a disease from Johns stuff in 10+ years of ordering), and buy corals from battle corals, wwc, and a few others and that’s it. These vendors have never done me wrong and always send me the healthiest specimens possible. It’s not perfect and I’m certainly opening myself up to potential diseases but sometimes you have to take risks. Maybe one day I’ll have a proper house in which I can build that dream fish room but until then this seems to work quite well for me.

 

[ca1ore]

@jasonrussoI guess it all comes down to your tolerance/threshold for risk.

This exactly. Though I slavishly QT fish, I mostly do not QT inverts accepting that while the possibility of fish diseases is present, it's not very likely. In fact, in 30 plus years in the hobby, I have not had one case where a fish disease HH in on a rock, coral or shell. These days all of my new corals come from fish free frag tanks anyhow.

 

[Kendrid]

I've received anthias with velvet from DD (2 years ago). QT every fish, no matter where it is from.