Do Corals help with ICH managment?

[MnFish1]

I said Maybe. I said this because about 2 months ago i had a really bad case of ich on my four fish in my reef tank. I treated that tank before i read that corals do not like ich medicine. I was able to catch or trap 3 of my fish and put them in quarantine. The fourth fish i was unable to catch or trap. A red damsel. I told him that he is just going to die then. two weeks later, he had no more ich. I waited another month, then put the rest of the fish back into the tank. No more ich. That red damsel was loaded with them. I can't explain it.

The fish became immune to CI - its not that uncommon - especially when there are no more fish to grow more parasites on. So basically - the levels in your tank (and its probably still there) are low enough that the fish are 'ok'

 

[Oswald]

From what i see in this thread folks are looking at the direct relationship between corals and fish...I've taken a different approach to thinking about this question. 'DO YOU THINK THAT THERE IS ANY MERIT TO THE THOUGHT THAT CORALS HELP MANAGE ICH?'.
Absolutely! But it's in helping the hobbyist maintain a healthier tank. Healthier corals likely mean healthier water parameters meaning healthier fish. Healthy fish, stronger immune system, less ICH break outs...therefore mischief managed! err....ich managed.
Just my $0.02

 

[Dondante]

Intriguing question

 

[TheRealDmorty217]

The answer is no. There have been several studies showing ich is only killed with medication or hypo salinity both of which will kill corals and most all invertebrates. Fish will build a immunity to ich after sometime of being exposed to it but every time you add a new fish the outbreak occurs again. Ich multiplies at such a rate that the corals even a tank full of corals will never eradicate it. Theronts and tomonts are the two stages that could possibly be eaten if you will by corals but if this was what actually happened then how do people introduce ich from Frags? If corals ate ich then there would never be any that came in with corals. I also believe the amount of theronts and tomonts produced far outnumber any ability for coral to control.

 

[TheRealDmorty217]

Obviously a heathy coral tank typically means a healthy tank in general

 

[ca1ore]

I vote no because ich is a parasite which coral have no interest with.

I’m curious how you know this?

 

[TN_Huskymama]

I voted maybe. I have wondered about this over the past year. I have noticed as my tank is maturing, I am having less fish health issues. I have also wondered if my Fire shrimp has had something to do with that as well since he loves to clean all of my fish and corals.

 

[ca1ore]

The question was not whether corals can eradicate ich (pretty clearly they cannot just based on the observations of countless reefers) but whether corals can help to manage it. An UV can help to manage ich but won’t eradicate it either. I noted in my earlier post that corals and ich may be correlation but not causation, but it does not strike me as unreasonable that large numbers of SPS could help to reduce overall parasite numbers.

 

[MnFish1]

The answer is no. There have been several studies showing ich is only killed with medication or hypo salinity both of which will kill corals and most all invertebrates. Fish will build a immunity to ich after sometime of being exposed to it but every time you add a new fish the outbreak occurs again. Ich multiplies at such a rate that the corals even a tank full of corals will never eradicate it. Theronts and tomonts are the two stages that could possibly be eaten if you will by corals but if this was what actually happened then how do people introduce ich from Frags? If corals ate ich then there would never be any that came in with corals. I also believe the amount of theronts and tomonts produced far outnumber any ability for coral to control.

Would you be willing to show the studies that show that? I checked several sources - and couldnt find anything (Pro or con)? To answer your question - the reason coral frags introduce CI potentially (and rarely) - is that it only takes '1' And - if there are carrier fish in a tank (which there must be - in order for the CI to be on the frag in the first place) - they are probably immune. In general - I think you are correct - in an 'outbreak' - coral alone will not 'fix the problem' - but I think maybe - they can help keep levels in check - as compared to a FOWLR

 

[klp]

I think it was Humblefish that said on a different topic that he had ich reappear in a tank when tank conditions went south a bit. He believed, or whoever it was, that ich had remained in the tank just not evident. This was in response to the question of keeping fish healthy through feeding live food keeps ich and other parasites at bay and eventually eliminates them. I think he had a reef tank but do not remember, its been a while.

 

[jda]

I do not like to post this because is is reckless to duplicate without a tank similar to mine, but this seems like a good time. I was giving a local lecture and ich and mature tanks came up. I put out there that I would not resist putting a well-eating fish into my display even if I knew that it had ich. I was taken up by a guy with a Blue Tang and a PBT tang. I put them in. There was some squabbling, but they ate and a week or so later, they were free and clear and none of the rest of my fish suffered at all. Nothing. I am a strong believer in the biodiversity that was preached by Dr. Ron, the folks at WWM and other places that an actual ecosystem will keep things like ich at bay. I have seen it in my own home. Ich does not stand a chance against the hungry and living things in my rock and sandbed. This this a cure? ...likely not.

My opinion... Correlation = mature corals are in mature and diverse tanks... the mature tank is doing the work. Causation != corals will eat enough ich make a difference.

I know that this is not the case in the sterile tanks of today, just like it was not the case in young tanks of yesteryear. Once I came to the conclusion that 100% eradication was a fools errand for me (and most), isolation, de-stressing and getting fish eating works for me.

Who was around 10-30 years ago before QT, TTM, Copper and all of that was common? The normal guideline was to wait for a mature tank. Most people though that stability was key, which is true... but so was the fauna on the rocks and sand populating the entire tank and ready for some meals to drop off of fish.

The issue with most FOWLRs is that the N and P get to poison levels with most microfauna. If you have a FOWLR with reef type of conditions, then the microfauna can do the same job if introduced.

 

[Fishfinder]

Here’s my personal experience. I had an established reef with tons of coral, Some large colonies. My fish rarely showed signs of ick if ever. I sold off all my coral, every piece. Didn’t remove sand. A couple rocks that contained encrusted pieces got sold as well. I ended up with a tank that had 50% new rock and 0 coral. 2 weeks later my fish were covered. Lost almost half of them. Some will say it was due to stress but I agree coral helps 100%

 

[TheRealDmorty217]

Would you be willing to show the studies that show that? I checked several sources - and couldnt find anything (Pro or con)? To answer your question - the reason coral frags introduce CI potentially (and rarely) - is that it only takes '1' And - if there are carrier fish in a tank (which there must be - in order for the CI to be on the frag in the first place) - they are probably immune. In general - I think you are correct - in an 'outbreak' - coral alone will not 'fix the problem' - but I think maybe - they can help keep levels in check - as compared to a FOWLR

im not doubting it may help. I don’t have the scientific studies with links I can give you but there are plenty of disease books, Noga comes to mind that confirm ich is eradicated with meds or hypo. The Long Island aquarium had a ich problem and though I don’t know for certain I assume there were plenty of other corals present and they resorted to making a gel paste type food with chloroquine phosphate to manage the ich. There is a story about what they did out there I’m sure with enough searching can find it for reference

 

[mindme]

The question was not whether corals can eradicate ich (pretty clearly they cannot just based on the observations of countless reefers) but whether corals can help to manage it. An UV can help to manage ich but won’t eradicate it either. I noted in my earlier post that corals and ich may be correlation but not causation, but it does not strike me as unreasonable that large numbers of SPS could help to reduce overall parasite numbers.

But it's like saying a tree will help manage a hurricane simply because we know a tree will block and slow some of the wind down.

In the end what matters if it will have a meaningful effect, and the answer is likely no. Just like that tree isn't going to have meaningful effects on a hurricane.

 

[BornHandy]

I'm on team "no"because...

When a single ich cyst releases the swimmers, you are talking about some pretty big numbers. What studies have been done shows that the cysts somewhat synchronize their release, so if a single fish were infected with maybe 20 cysts, maybe 20,000 free swimmers are possible when the free swimming stage of the cycle is in full swing. Just imagine if half of your fish are infected with close to 100 cysts each!

I fully expect many swimmers to be eaten by coral polyps, but 20k is an overwhelming number of parasites, and that's a mild infection...so in my mind, the "window of infection" just has too many parasites for corals to make a meaningful difference...

Just my opinion though

 

[JAC-]

This is something I've never considered.

As many others, I went with yes as more of a technicality. I believe some of the parasites will be eaten by some corals.

So sure, it will "help".

That said I do not suspect that or coral alone will make any significant difference in the outcome of the presence of ICH.

Curious to see what more of my knowledgeable and experienced friends think though.

 

[ca1ore]

But it's like saying a tree will help manage a hurricane simply because we know a tree will block and slow some of the wind down.

In the end what matters if it will have a meaningful effect, and the answer is likely no. Just like that tree isn't going to have meaningful effects on a hurricane.

That’s an amusing analogy .... you are probably right that the effect is minimal. Likely no is not definitively no though. Interesting thread though. As I noted in my first post in this thread, the water quality necessary to keep corals also keeps fish healthier .... and that’s probably the correlation.

 

[zert11797]

Could the ick potentially latch on to the coral and keep it in circulation longer?

 

[MnFish1]

I recently read a study where clams were able to eliminate bacteria in the water column.. vibrio comes to mind, so a clam could help reduce ich tormonts or theronts or whatever the motile phase is called.

would you mind posting a link? Clams should not (can not) eliminate bacteria from the water column entirely - my guess is they remove 'some'

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

It was in last months national geographic. Was a story about how the loss of biodiversity in reefs makes them more susceptible to disease.