Do I need GFO?

[cobergas]

On Fusion 30 you have no sump to run a scrubber and the stick on ones do not work.

Randy can you skim phosphate out of the water I have always been under the impression you cannot skim that out. Also, carbon dosing do the nitrates and phosphates not have some correlation?

 

[Jakepen]

On Fusion 30 you have no sump to run a scrubber and the stick on ones do not work.

Randy can you skim phosphate out of the water I have always been under the impression you cannot skim that out. Also, carbon dosing do the nitrates and phosphates not have some correlation?

Oh alright, good to know. I was looking at the Santa Monica ATSs. They seemed pretty efficient.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

On Fusion 30 you have no sump to run a scrubber and the stick on ones do not work.

Randy can you skim phosphate out of the water I have always been under the impression you cannot skim that out. Also, carbon dosing do the nitrates and phosphates not have some correlation?

No, you cannot skim inorganic phosphate.

You can skim organics and whole bacteria that have attached organics, however.

In organic carbon dosing, both N and P are taken up to build bacterial tissue, but bacteria in low O2 situations also use nitrate as a source of oxygen, producing N2 and so not just as a source of nitrogen for tissue, the way aerobic bacteria do. So they use a lot more nitrate than aerobic bacteria when both are growing on the same nutrients and organics.

 

[flyinryan75]

Following... Good stuff.

 

[briancarterkc]

Easier to carbon dose. GFO is kinda old school anymore and it's a huge extra cost for the reactor and constantly buying media.
Check out nopox/reef energy, one of the easiest laid out systems for carbon dosing and feeding.

Vodka is a lot cheaper than NO3: PO4-X (AKA NOPOX) and pretty much just as effective. Also makes a heck of a lot better dirty martini (one for reef...one for me).

Here's your starter on carbon dosing: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

 

[midtnmike41]

Following. My year old 90 gallon reef tank is starting to have raising nitrates. I have been running carbon and gfo the entire time. Debating carbon dosing. Still putting it off to see if nitrates go down but no such luck.

 

[Jakepen]

Vodka is a lot cheaper than NO3: PO4-X (AKA NOPOX) and pretty much just as effective. Also makes a heck of a lot better dirty martini (one for reef...one for me).

Here's your starter on carbon dosing: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

I'll read into it. I'd really like to keep it as simple as possible. Which I'm sure will not work for me and I'll eventually have to try different methods..

Anybody else try carbon dosing?

 

[Jakepen]

There comes a point when water changes aren't enough to lower trates?

 

[briancarterkc]

I'll read into it. I'd really like to keep it as simple as possible. Which I'm sure will not work for me and I'll eventually have to try different methods..

Anybody else try carbon dosing?

Just google "reef carbon dosing." You will find untold examples of success with either vodka or vinegar. I like vodka because the doses are smaller and there isn't the same drop in alk (more liquid at a lower ph with vinegar). Don't start it unless you can commit to doing it every day or getting an auto dosing setup. But. It works. My last setup I ran with very low feeding, frequent water changes, and aggressive skimmer and could never get nitrates below 30. With carbon dosing nitrates are undetectable.

Also, 25% water changes sound aggressive. 15% should be fine.

 

[Jakepen]

Just google "reef carbon dosing." You will find untold examples of success with either vodka or vinegar. I like vodka because the doses are smaller and there isn't the same drop in alk (more liquid at a lower ph with vinegar). Don't start it unless you can commit to doing it every day or getting an auto dosing setup. But. It works. My last setup I ran with very low feeding, frequent water changes, and aggressive skimmer and could never get nitrates below 30. With carbon dosing nitrates are undetectable.

Also, 25% water changes sound aggressive. 15% should be fine.

Is there a downside to doing to large a wc? I've heard that some corals like the water, a little "dirty"...

 

[Jakepen]

And yes, I'll look into that, thank you.

 

[briancarterkc]

Is there a downside to doing to large a wc? I've heard that some corals like the water, a little "dirty"...

No. Not really. Mostly just the expense for making RODI water, salt, etc.

Some corals do like the water dirtier but it's a function of all you have in the tank. If you have a mixed tank you should keep it "clean" and periodically feed something like coral frenzy.

 

[Bruce Burnett]

no sump makes it harder for GFO, large protein skimmer ECT. Protein skimmer does not remove dissolved organics but will remove food and waste before they are converted. Carbon dosing helps grow bacteria that use nitrates and phosphates, the bacteria can then be skimmed out and used as food for corals. Bio pellets, vodka and vinegar are all forms of carbon. Bio pellets will remove nitrates and phosphates but in a set ratio. If the nitrates get to low then the bio pellets will not bring the phosphates down enough so you use gfo to remove phosphates or add nitrates so the bio pellets can bring the phosphates down. To much gfo at one time can cause a shock to the corals by dropping phosphates to fast. My tank is bare bottom, I am using all in one bio pellets that contain gfo don't know if anyone else is. I am having to feed heavier as my nitrates and phosphates read zero Salifert nitrate and Hanna ultra low phosphates test kits. Absolutely no green algae not even on the glass. Have purple, green, red and orange coralline. Potassium seems to run low using red sea test kit got new reagents still low. Been bringing it up and all corals have better color. Not sure if it is being consumed or just not accurate test kit was around 280 now about 325. Algae turf scrubber, never used one and I prefer to have things setup where I can leave 1-2 weeks and not require someone to tend to my tank, that is another advantage of a sump the water level in the tank stays constant. I have a 40 gallon auto top off which will last about 15-17 days maybe less during summer.

 

[Jakepen]

no sump makes it harder for GFO, large protein skimmer ECT. Protein skimmer does not remove dissolved organics but will remove food and waste before they are converted. Carbon dosing helps grow bacteria that use nitrates and phosphates, the bacteria can then be skimmed out and used as food for corals. Bio pellets, vodka and vinegar are all forms of carbon. Bio pellets will remove nitrates and phosphates but in a set ratio. If the nitrates get to low then the bio pellets will not bring the phosphates down enough so you use gfo to remove phosphates or add nitrates so the bio pellets can bring the phosphates down. To much gfo at one time can cause a shock to the corals by dropping phosphates to fast. My tank is bare bottom, I am using all in one bio pellets that contain gfo don't know if anyone else is. I am having to feed heavier as my nitrates and phosphates read zero Salifert nitrate and Hanna ultra low phosphates test kits. Absolutely no green algae not even on the glass. Have purple, green, red and orange coralline. Potassium seems to run low using red sea test kit got new reagents still low. Been bringing it up and all corals have better color. Not sure if it is being consumed or just not accurate test kit was around 280 now about 325. Algae turf scrubber, never used one and I prefer to have things setup where I can leave 1-2 weeks and not require someone to tend to my tank, that is another advantage of a sump the water level in the tank stays constant. I have a 40 gallon auto top off which will last about 15-17 days maybe less during summer.

Awesome, great read thanks for sharing. How are you running your bio pellets? Also what brand are they? I would like to check them out.

 

[Bruce Burnett]

us

Awesome, great read thanks for sharing. How are you running your bio pellets? Also what brand are they? I would like to check them out.

using reefapex from amazon, using a recirculating pellet reactor

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I'll read into it. I'd really like to keep it as simple as possible. Which I'm sure will not work for me and I'll eventually have to try different methods..

Anybody else try carbon dosing?

It is extremely common these days. I do it using vinegar, along with other methods (macroalgae, GFO, skimming, GAC, and lots of live rock in refugia).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

no sump makes it harder for GFO, large protein skimmer ECT. Protein skimmer does not remove dissolved organics but will remove food and waste before they are converted. Carbon dosing helps grow bacteria that use nitrates and phosphates, the bacteria can then be skimmed out and used as food for corals. Bio pellets, vodka and vinegar are all forms of carbon. Bio pellets will remove nitrates and phosphates but in a set ratio. If the nitrates get to low then the bio pellets will not bring the phosphates down enough so you use gfo to remove phosphates or add nitrates so the bio pellets can bring the phosphates down. To much gfo at one time can cause a shock to the corals by dropping phosphates to fast. My tank is bare bottom, I am using all in one bio pellets that contain gfo don't know if anyone else is. I am having to feed heavier as my nitrates and phosphates read zero Salifert nitrate and Hanna ultra low phosphates test kits. Absolutely no green algae not even on the glass. Have purple, green, red and orange coralline. Potassium seems to run low using red sea test kit got new reagents still low. Been bringing it up and all corals have better color. Not sure if it is being consumed or just not accurate test kit was around 280 now about 325. Algae turf scrubber, never used one and I prefer to have things setup where I can leave 1-2 weeks and not require someone to tend to my tank, that is another advantage of a sump the water level in the tank stays constant. I have a 40 gallon auto top off which will last about 15-17 days maybe less during summer.

Why do you believe a skimmer won't remove dissolved organics? It will remove many types of dissolved organic molecules.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Just google "reef carbon dosing." You will find untold examples of success with either vodka or vinegar. I like vodka because the doses are smaller and there isn't the same drop in alk (more liquid at a lower ph with vinegar). Don't start it unless you can commit to doing it every day or getting an auto dosing setup. But. It works. My last setup I ran with very low feeding, frequent water changes, and aggressive skimmer and could never get nitrates below 30. With carbon dosing nitrates are undetectable.

Also, 25% water changes sound aggressive. 15% should be fine.

Just to clarify, vinegar use does not deplete alkalinity, and all types of carbon dosing lowers pH, vinegar just has more of its pH lowering at the start and less later when it is consumed, while for vodka the pH lowering all happens later. Spreading out the pH drop may be an advantage of vodka, but it still lowers pH.

FWIW, for manual dosing of vinegar, you can add calcium hydroxide into it to prevent any pH drop on addition. I did that before I got a dosing pump to add it slowly.

 

[Jakepen]

Just to clarify, vinegar use does not deplete alkalinity, and all types of carbon dosing lowers pH, vinegar just has more of its pH lowering at the start and less later when it is consumed, while for vodka the pH lowering all happens later. Spreading out the pH drop may be an advantage of vodka, but it still lowers pH.

FWIW, for manual dosing of vinegar, you can add calcium hydroxide into it to prevent any pH drop on addition. I did that before I got a dosing pump to add it slowly.

Feel like I just stepped into a new part of reef keeping, all seems very confusing ha
.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Feel like I just stepped into a new part of reef keeping, all seems very confusing ha
.

I'm happy to explain further any issues that concern you about it.