Do people overexaggerate tangs

[Dave1993]

The PBT is fine i moved the nori clip down the other side of the tank so it goes down there now also added 2 new fish i'm upgrading sometime next year to a 5/6 footer once my goldflake grows abit had a little bit agression from the PBT with the 1" goldflake which was kinda scary but put a mirror up PBT went crazy with itself it had 4 white lines down where the blue is never seen that before the lines have gone now dnu if that was stress or anger thinking another tang was in the tank anyone ever seen that before?

 

[mrred]

There coming for YOU

 

[Dave1993]

There coming for YOU

They already been mate

 

[i cant think]

They already been mate

Yes they have haha, also out of all the Acanthurus tangs I’ve kept in the LFS, none of them had white lines due to aggression but instead due to stress. I most commonly saw the white lines show up in the nigricans and hybrid PBTs though, I didn’t see the powder blues get white lines too often.

 

[LiamPM]

Felt compelled to reply....and I haven't read all 8 pages....but here's my two cents:

1. No matter what experts/people say, you'll never convince people on how happy their tang is in their disgustingly small tanks.

2. Tangs are the fast, sporty cars of our fish tanks.

Are you able to drive your Lamborghini Aventador in lower Manhattan during rush hour? Or would you prefer to hit the Autobahn in Germany?

What opened my eyes were two experiences.....Seeing tangs in a 12 (or 14) foot tank and watching them race the full length of the tank....it was amazing to sit and watch a truly happy tang buzz the length of the tank. The second thing was when our local club helped a business break down a 450 gallon tank that had all of four fish...a full size Sailfin Tang (it had to be close to 2 feet high), and three enormous Yellow tangs. The 450 gallon tank looked too small for the Sailfin, which didn't fit in a five gallon bucket....needed to use a fisherman's net and a large tote to move the fish to the LFS.

I say this quite regularly when these discussions pop up but those that think their Surgeonfish (most species of) are happy and growing the way it should in their 2 foot cube (just an example) have not seen that very same fish in a very large tank - Most that understand these fish need very large tanks are those that have seen them in very large tanks themselves. (Im not talking public aquariums)

Exactly the same experience you have noted - I had a sailfin for around 9 years in a 6 foot tank that i believed was absolutely happy, perfect and growing. It got to a point it was just too big for the tank and was just showing aggression too often in places it never did before.

I moved it on to someone with a 14 foot, extremely large tank and it was honestly a different fish. I could pjhysically see it have a change in attitude. It changed the way it moved, acted, fed - Literally every aspect of itself to a pouint youd be sure it wasnt the same fish. It was obvious it was much more happy due to its new attitude.

That experience opened my eyes to these fish. I now stock my tanks with much more suitable sized fish and my tanks are much less "issue" attracting for it.

 

[i cant think]

I say this quite regularly when these discussions pop up but those that think their Surgeonfish (most species of) are happy and growing the way it should in their 2 foot cube (just an example) have not seen that very same fish in a very large tank - Most that understand these fish need very large tanks are those that have seen them in very large tanks themselves. (Im not talking public aquariums)

Exactly the same experience you have noted - I had a sailfin for around 9 years in a 6 foot tank that i believed was absolutely happy, perfect and growing. It got to a point it was just too big for the tank and was just showing aggression too often in places it never did before.

I moved it on to someone with a 14 foot, extremely large tank and it was honestly a different fish. I could pjhysically see it have a change in attitude. It changed the way it moved, acted, fed - Literally every aspect of itself to a pouint youd be sure it wasnt the same fish. It was obvious it was much more happy due to its new attitude.

That experience opened my eyes to these fish. I now stock my tanks with much more suitable sized fish and my tanks are much less "issue" attracting for it.

This is the same thing I’ve experienced, when I worked in the LFS the largest holding tank we had was 4’x2’x2’ and when the larger tangs got moved out of that tank they really showed a huge change in attitude. We had a Sohal come in (It was about 4-5” or so, a nice sized tang) and it got moved to this guy with a 10’ tank, wasn’t a surprise to us since he usually spends hundreds on coral and fish for his tank. This Sohal went from being the most aggressive tang I have ever seen to being the most peaceful fish in that tank. I’ve seen similar things happen with the Achilles and PB tangs we got in, I actually think one of the Achilles we got in went to the same guy with the Sohal if I remember correctly. I definitely say these tangs need 8’ tanks in the long run, 4’ tanks and pelagic swimmers just don’t mix properly, the only tangs that behaved similarly in 4’ tanks were the smallest of the Ctenochaetus.

 

[i cant think]

This is the same thing I’ve experienced, when I worked in the LFS the largest holding tank we had was 4’x2’x2’ and when the larger tangs got moved out of that tank they really showed a huge change in attitude. We had a Sohal come in (It was about 4-5” or so, a nice sized tang) and it got moved to this guy with a 10’ tank, wasn’t a surprise to us since he usually spends hundreds on coral and fish for his tank. This Sohal went from being the most aggressive tang I have ever seen to being the most peaceful fish in that tank. I’ve seen similar things happen with the Achilles and PB tangs we got in, I actually think one of the Achilles we got in went to the same guy with the Sohal if I remember correctly. I definitely say these tangs need 8’ tanks in the long run, 4’ tanks and pelagic swimmers just don’t mix properly, the only tangs that behaved similarly in 4’ tanks were the smallest of the Ctenochaetus.

Since I can’t edit this, I’ll just add onto it;
The only thing that’s stumped me with my tang in my tank was the colours it went one day. I thought it was displaying but this looked more like a hybrid of a Twinspot and a White tail bristletooth tang it went that light in colour. Usually when he displays his colour goes light but his pattern goes deep and more dominant, his tail will also gain more colour. This wasn’t stress or anything it was acting normal in every other way except his colour form. Here’s a photo of it when this happened, it’s never happened since though which is odd. This fish definitely isnt what everyone says tangs are “Boring”. He’s VERY interesting to watch instead and uses the whole tank (As a tang should, no tang I have seen that wasn’t stressed has stayed on one side of the tank). To me, the larger tangs are more boring in tanks too small due to them just constantly swimming. I would definitely say most acanthurus tangs and the two sailfin tangs need Atleast 8 foot of tank if not larger. The Sohal I looked after just constantly swam and took breaks every so often in the 4’ tank but in the 10’ tank he was a completely different fish, he wasn’t swimming so much and grazed much more!
Here’s the photo of my tang in the strange colours:

 

[Zionas]

Interesting experience, thanks for sharing it. In you opinion what tank size do the smaller Zebrasoma (as in not the Sailfins) need? Do you find them to get nervous easily and get aggressive in most of our tanks? Would you say they’re more well-suited for aquariums than the vast majority of Acanthurus?

 

[i cant think]

Interesting experience, thanks for sharing it. In you opinion what tank size do the smaller Zebrasoma (as in not the Sailfins) need? Do you find them to get nervous easily and get aggressive in most of our tanks? Would you say they’re more well-suited for aquariums than the vast majority of Acanthurus?

I would say they’re slightly more suited yes, Actually, I would say even the true long nose (Yes I have seen one before, actually in the past year I’ve seen a true long nose) is more suitable for the aquarium hobby. I have found that the smaller Zebrasoma tangs are much less of a pelagic swimmer than Acanthurus tangs are, I have put a gem tang in a 5’x2’x2’ tank before and he was calm as ever and is actually still in that tank at my LFS. I would say for a yellow tang the bare minimum would be 4’ but even then to me I feel like a 6” yellow would be too big for that. I think to comfortably fit a smaller Zebrasoma you’d need Atleast a 6’ diagonal swim line so going by that, 5x2x2 would be comfortable, I think if you wanted to have several smaller Zebrasomas you’d need 7’ diagonal (6x2x2) but even then that to me wouldn’t be enough. Here’s the list of Zebrasoma tangs and the size of tank I think just one would be able to thrive in from past experiences with each of these fish in a 18” cube to a 4’ tank (The holding tank sizes we had) and then to their final tanks - Many of the more common Zebrasoma tangs were put in 5-6 foot tanks and nobody had an overly aggressive tang.
- Yellow Tang (Z. flavscens) > 5’ tank
- Purple Tang (Z. xanthurum) > 5’ tank
- Gem Tang (Z. gemmatum) > 5’ tank
- Scopas Tang (Z. scopas) > 6’ tank
- False long Nose Tang (Z. rostratum x scopas) > 6’ tank
- True Long Nose Tang (Z. rostratum) >7’ tank

I put the False Long Nose Tang in the same size tank as a Scopas, this is purely because I can’t remember the max size these get but know it’s somewhere between the Scopas and Rostratum’s max size. Also, neither of those fish are truly pelagic swimmers however can swim quite fast (The scopas is more of a fast winner though, the rostratum is a more gentle swimmer). In terms of nervousness, I wouldn’t say these fish are much different to the Ctenochaetus genus with their care, other than clear body shape differences and size difference.

 

[Zionas]

Have you seen these smaller Zebrasoma get 6+ inches regularly? Or were they caught close to or at that size?

I was communicating with another member who specializes in fish breeding (Thomas Roewer) and he said that sometimes Zebrasoma tangs can have problems with angels since they both graze (maybe Genicanthus are an exception?), so he thinks a Yellow Tang (even a captive bred one) might not be the best fit if I want a pair of large angels and a harem of dwarfs. This especially applies to ones like Regals (1/2 species I’m considering a pair of, with the other being Blue Lines).

I also find that since most people keep Tangs singly (or in some large tanks, they keep like a shoal of Yellows), while my preference for fish that are easier to form pair or harem bonds is the same as yours, I don’t find Tangs as a whole to be that interesting. Sure some have nice colors and look good, but in the majority of cases you’re just getting a fish that….. swims around. If I went diving and saw a shoal of Tangs, such as Yellows or some other species, they just kind of follow each other around in a big clump, grazing one patch to the next over distances. This may not be the case with Cthenochaetus, but from what I’ve seen this does seem to be the case with Zebrasoma (maybe with exceptions) and Acanthurus and Paracanthurus.

The fish I find really interesting are those with a social but more “exclusivist” nature, AKA the types that as you pointed out, form pairs or harems rather than hang out in big groups.

When I see the behavior of a fish like a Yellow Tang in the wild, I almost feel bad about keeping them singly in captivity. However, even in very large tanks (such as David Saxby’s) like David Saxby’s, in his video with Coralfish12g he mentions that although he can get his Yellow Tangs (with an odd Yellow Scopas mixed in) to shoal, every 3 years or so the less prominent members of the shoal are ganged up on and killed. I don’t want that to happen with my fish.

So these factors put together make me strongly inclined towards fish with a clear pairing or haremic social structure over ones that are found in big groups but don’t have a clear “smaller” social and sexual structure. For all I know, many species of Tangs could indeed be hermaphrodites that form pair and harem bonds, that break into pairs or harems during spawning, but even then it may well be just a temporary arrangement over the number of successful pairing or harem forming attempts in other species like Clowns, Angels, etc.

And we can pretty much forget about getting Tangs to spawn, they’re the textbook definition of pelagic and large scale spawners which require very large facilities to even break into smaller breeding units (if that’s what they do).

I also like a leisurely pace among my fish, rather than a very busy tank that looks like a race track. A lot of these smaller fish with pairs or harems as social units have more of that “holding positions” or “holding territories” behavior that I far prefer over very active fish that just go from Point A to B.

I just find a pair of large angels or a harem of dwarfs kept together to be a very beautiful thing. We probably can’t get most large angels to spawn in the average to somewhat above average sized tank (maybe the smaller Genicanthus are an exception) but the courtship rituals and spawning dances of many dwarf angels are so elaborate and interesting to watch.

 

[reefah]

So i went against everything i heard and decided to get a powder blue tang added to an established purple people said the powder blue would murder all my fish not enough room blah blah blah the powder blue uses 2 foot of the tank (the side i feed also my tank is 4 foot)

so what's you're opinions do you think people overexaggerate the space needed for tangs maybe i got lazy tangs that don't like swimming

Had the purple 2 years the powder blue 1 year

I introduced a yellow tang to a hippo, then I got a blue powder to introduce to those two and they’re inseparable. Swim together and eat together all three of them

 

[i cant think]

Have you seen these smaller Zebrasoma get 6+ inches regularly? Or were they caught close to or at that size?

I was communicating with another member who specializes in fish breeding (Thomas Roewer) and he said that sometimes Zebrasoma tangs can have problems with angels since they both graze (maybe Genicanthus are an exception?), so he thinks a Yellow Tang (even a captive bred one) might not be the best fit if I want a pair of large angels and a harem of dwarfs. This especially applies to ones like Regals (1/2 species I’m considering a pair of, with the other being Blue Lines).

I also find that since most people keep Tangs singly (or in some large tanks, they keep like a shoal of Yellows), while my preference for fish that are easier to form pair or harem bonds is the same as yours, I don’t find Tangs as a whole to be that interesting. Sure some have nice colors and look good, but in the majority of cases you’re just getting a fish that….. swims around. If I went diving and saw a shoal of Tangs, such as Yellows or some other species, they just kind of follow each other around in a big clump, grazing one patch to the next over distances. This may not be the case with Cthenochaetus, but from what I’ve seen this does seem to be the case with Zebrasoma (maybe with exceptions) and Acanthurus and Paracanthurus.

The fish I find really interesting are those with a social but more “exclusivist” nature, AKA the types that as you pointed out, form pairs or harems rather than hang out in big groups.

When I see the behavior of a fish like a Yellow Tang in the wild, I almost feel bad about keeping them singly in captivity. However, even in very large tanks (such as David Saxby’s) like David Saxby’s, in his video with Coralfish12g he mentions that although he can get his Yellow Tangs (with an odd Yellow Scopas mixed in) to shoal, every 3 years or so the less prominent members of the shoal are ganged up on and killed. I don’t want that to happen with my fish.

So these factors put together make me strongly inclined towards fish with a clear pairing or haremic social structure over ones that are found in big groups but don’t have a clear “smaller” social and sexual structure. For all I know, many species of Tangs could indeed be hermaphrodites that form pair and harem bonds, that break into pairs or harems during spawning, but even then it may well be just a temporary arrangement over the number of successful pairing or harem forming attempts in other species like Clowns, Angels, etc.

And we can pretty much forget about getting Tangs to spawn, they’re the textbook definition of pelagic and large scale spawners which require very large facilities to even break into smaller breeding units (if that’s what they do).

I have seen yellows get to 6” but they were back when 2-3” Hawaiian yellows were available as for the other two, I have seen a 4 inch Purple (Actually, my LFS has one in their frag tank). The biggest gemmatum I’ve seen was 3” tops. I don’t think I’ve seen a 6” CB yellow yet but it’s not impossible if given time. Most yellows I have seen were between 4 and 6 inch. I definitely agree with how they could go after angels since they graze similar things. I would say Genicanthus is an exception since they don’t actually seem to graze or Atleast mine doesn’t. In the wild Genicanthus angels are instead calm swimming planktovores and eat phyto. The only reason I can think a tang would ever go after a Genicanthus is because of the body shape - Specifically Ctenochaetus and elongated Acanthurus tangs. I would avoid this fish though because of the chance he could go after your angels but that’s just my recommendation.

 

[Zionas]

I think I will avoid having a Yellow Tang. Given the ideal conditions, an angelfish pair or harem guards a territory equivalent to about 6m x 4m which is public aquarium size and a large tank even by public aquarium standards (unless I’m missing out on something). Some angels (especially the Pomacanthus and Holacanthus) may hold even larger territories. I wouldn’t want the risk of another very active and potentially aggressive fish to challenge them. An 8ft tank is about slightly under half the horizontal range of the territory of many angelfish species. Granted I am going only for captive bred versions of the angels I’m considering, but I would nonetheless shy away from that risk. Maybe a Cthenochaetus at most, I’ll see, but the angels as my focus are enough.

In fact I believe the presence of active and temperamentally challenging fish for the angels can lead to issues in their rate and willingness when it comes to pairing up or forming a small harem. Stressed fish are more likely to lash out towards other fish and towards each other.

I also think people who really want a “school” of Yellow Tangs or some other kind of Tang (I don’t think Cthenochaetus like to travel in big groups as much) are also risking the lives of their fish and the health of the system. To my knowledge for most non-Cthenochaetus Tangs, the pairing off or harem forming (if any form harems) is temporary at best. Usually they just kind of clump together and move across the reef in one big mass. So it’s not that they “like” each other and “want” to be in smaller social units as part of their natural preference, they just kind of do it out of necessity because hey, someone’s got to carry on the family line.

Even when there are people who say they’ve had a group of 3, 5, or 7 Tangs coexisting peacefully (one species), I’ve always felt that for them it’s a matter of tolerance and many times it does end up going south once the Tangs get older. I can’t imagine the territory of most Tangs (excluding maybe the Cthenochaetus) being anything but larger than the “average” dwarf or medium sized angel, because many of these Tangs travel very long distances. Plus we aren’t as clear on whether most, a few, or any Tangs change sex, whereas we know very well that fish like Clowns, Angels, Wrasses change sex while Butterflies are generally fixed in their sex (unless we find exceptions).

If we are talking about the health of the system, when the group of Tangs get along fine that’s cool, but I’d rather not have to deal with constant wounding and then ich outbreaks once they decide they no longer want to stick together.

With other families of fish where it’s only natural for them to want to be paired up or live as a harem, I don’t see why I would want to go for a group of fish where we aren’t as sure about how exactly their gender works and are likely only tolerating each other 95% of the time and breaking into smaller units out of necessity rather than being “inherently” social.

 

[keithw283]

So i went against everything i heard and decided to get a powder blue tang added to an established purple people said the powder blue would murder all my fish not enough room blah blah blah the powder blue uses 2 foot of the tank (the side i feed also my tank is 4 foot)

so what's you're opinions do you think people overexaggerate the space needed for tangs maybe i got lazy tangs that don't like swimming

Had the purple 2 years the powder blue 1 year

how big are your tangs? You can absolutely add any fish to any size tank as long as you have an exit strategy. As we know, tangs are open water swimmers and I wouldn't have two fully grown tangs in a 4 foot tank. I would absolutely have both of those tangs in there when they are younger and still smaller. At one point I had a foxface, tomini tang, bicolor angel, flame angel and melanarus wrasse in a 55. Along with a couple clowns and a royal gramma. All of those first fish have a minimum tank size of at least 75 gallons according to live aquaria. But that is for their adult size.

 

[Dave1993]

how big are your tangs? You can absolutely add any fish to any size tank as long as you have an exit strategy. As we know, tangs are open water swimmers and I wouldn't have two fully grown tangs in a 4 foot tank. I would absolutely have both of those tangs in there when they are younger and still smaller. At one point I had a foxface, tomini tang, bicolor angel, flame angel and melanarus wrasse in a 55. Along with a couple clowns and a royal gramma. All of those first fish have a minimum tank size of at least 75 gallons according to live aquaria. But that is for their adult size.

They are both around 4 inches

 

[alain Bouchard]

I think I will avoid having a Yellow Tang. Given the ideal conditions, an angelfish pair or harem guards a territory equivalent to about 6m x 4m which is public aquarium size and a large tank even by public aquarium standards (unless I’m missing out on something). Some angels (especially the Pomacanthus and Holacanthus) may hold even larger territories. I wouldn’t want the risk of another very active and potentially aggressive fish to challenge them. An 8ft tank is about slightly under half the horizontal range of the territory of many angelfish species. Granted I am going only for captive bred versions of the angels I’m considering, but I would nonetheless shy away from that risk. Maybe a Cthenochaetus at most, I’ll see, but the angels as my focus are enough.

In fact I believe the presence of active and temperamentally challenging fish for the angels can lead to issues in their rate and willingness when it comes to pairing up or forming a small harem. Stressed fish are more likely to lash out towards other fish and towards each other.

I also think people who really want a “school” of Yellow Tangs or some other kind of Tang (I don’t think Cthenochaetus like to travel in big groups as much) are also risking the lives of their fish and the health of the system. To my knowledge for most non-Cthenochaetus Tangs, the pairing off or harem forming (if any form harems) is temporary at best. Usually they just kind of clump together and move across the reef in one big mass. So it’s not that they “like” each other and “want” to be in smaller social units as part of their natural preference, they just kind of do it out of necessity because hey, someone’s got to carry on the family line.

Even when there are people who say they’ve had a group of 3, 5, or 7 Tangs coexisting peacefully (one species), I’ve always felt that for them it’s a matter of tolerance and many times it does end up going south once the Tangs get older. I can’t imagine the territory of most Tangs (excluding maybe the Cthenochaetus) being anything but larger than the “average” dwarf or medium sized angel, because many of these Tangs travel very long distances. Plus we aren’t as clear on whether most, a few, or any Tangs change sex, whereas we know very well that fish like Clowns, Angels, Wrasses change sex while Butterflies are generally fixed in their sex (unless we find exceptions).

If we are talking about the health of the system, when the group of Tangs get along fine that’s cool, but I’d rather not have to deal with constant wounding and then ich outbreaks once they decide they no longer want to stick together.

With other families of fish where it’s only natural for them to want to be paired up or live as a harem, I don’t see why I would want to go for a group of fish where we aren’t as sure about how exactly their gender works and are likely only tolerating each other 95% of the time and breaking into smaller units out of necessity rather than being “inherently” social.

IMAO, territory size is not applicable to a reef tank. An animal that defend its territory defends its feeding ground. In a tank, if you feed enough, there is no way a fish will need to defend such a big territory. It mostly need space for hiding, breeding if applicable, exercise and grazing between feeding. Got 3 tangs in my 180gal that hang together all day long, almost like schooling, until at night where they all have their little spot for sleeping.

 

[Zionas]

Nice tank you got there. I’m personally an Angel fan over a Tang fan so some of my views might come off as too much in favor of Angels, but you nonetheless have a nice tank. What is the hobby like in Canada?

 

[alain Bouchard]

Nice tank you got there. I’m personally an Angel fan over a Tang fan so some of my views might come off as too much in favor of Angels, but you nonetheless have a nice tank. What is the hobby like in Canada?

thanks, if angels were not mostly not reef safe, I'd have more for sure. As for reefing in canada, pretty much the same as for the US, except a bit colder, and everything cost a bit more

 

[i cant think]

I think I will avoid having a Yellow Tang. Given the ideal conditions, an angelfish pair or harem guards a territory equivalent to about 6m x 4m which is public aquarium size and a large tank even by public aquarium standards (unless I’m missing out on something). Some angels (especially the Pomacanthus and Holacanthus) may hold even larger territories. I wouldn’t want the risk of another very active and potentially aggressive fish to challenge them. An 8ft tank is about slightly under half the horizontal range of the territory of many angelfish species. Granted I am going only for captive bred versions of the angels I’m considering, but I would nonetheless shy away from that risk. Maybe a Cthenochaetus at most, I’ll see, but the angels as my focus are enough.

In fact I believe the presence of active and temperamentally challenging fish for the angels can lead to issues in their rate and willingness when it comes to pairing up or forming a small harem. Stressed fish are more likely to lash out towards other fish and towards each other.

I also think people who really want a “school” of Yellow Tangs or some other kind of Tang (I don’t think Cthenochaetus like to travel in big groups as much) are also risking the lives of their fish and the health of the system. To my knowledge for most non-Cthenochaetus Tangs, the pairing off or harem forming (if any form harems) is temporary at best. Usually they just kind of clump together and move across the reef in one big mass. So it’s not that they “like” each other and “want” to be in smaller social units as part of their natural preference, they just kind of do it out of necessity because hey, someone’s got to carry on the family line.

Even when there are people who say they’ve had a group of 3, 5, or 7 Tangs coexisting peacefully (one species), I’ve always felt that for them it’s a matter of tolerance and many times it does end up going south once the Tangs get older. I can’t imagine the territory of most Tangs (excluding maybe the Cthenochaetus) being anything but larger than the “average” dwarf or medium sized angel, because many of these Tangs travel very long distances. Plus we aren’t as clear on whether most, a few, or any Tangs change sex, whereas we know very well that fish like Clowns, Angels, Wrasses change sex while Butterflies are generally fixed in their sex (unless we find exceptions).

If we are talking about the health of the system, when the group of Tangs get along fine that’s cool, but I’d rather not have to deal with constant wounding and then ich outbreaks once they decide they no longer want to stick together.

With other families of fish where it’s only natural for them to want to be paired up or live as a harem, I don’t see why I would want to go for a group of fish where we aren’t as sure about how exactly their gender works and are likely only tolerating each other 95% of the time and breaking into smaller units out of necessity rather than being “inherently” social.

I would do a Ctenochaetus, mine seems to be the most peaceful in the tank (Usually at most he will display to my Genicanthus but not much further from there). I definitely agree with people risking their fish(es) lives by grouping them when we know little to nothing about how they truly prefer it. I think these tangs can only truly be peaceful when they have a double digit number, even then I think this is still risky. In the groups we see in the wild, it’s never 7-9 it’s always a minimum of a double digit number.