Do you agree with Paul B's method (no QT) ?

[CyberGuy]

I’ve

Ive never dipped an acro in my life, or any coral. I don’t remove plugs or clean the bases of aquaculture, I’ve never had AEFW, red bugs, black bugs or anything, had the odd bacterial infection though over the years... maybe the acro crabs that I have in every coral and dozens of hermits grazing over them constantly or the wrasse and angels picking at them, help... or maybe I’m just very lucky!!! interestingly the US seems to suffer more with AEFW than other countries, just like you seem to have more fish diseases and yet you all dip and quarantine more than any other country... and you have more “sterile” tanks with less diverse life.. potential correlation anyone???

You are wondering why in the U.S. we have more ich and AEFW than any other countries? If you think about it, we also have more illegal immigrants than any other countries. It must be an opportunist thing.

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

Generally I agree with PaulB's method due to the fact of how hard QT is on certain fish. If we polled it, we'd probably see close to a 40% or 50% loss rate in QT if people are honest. Not just the sterile environment is a killer but also due to human error with meds dosages, ammonia issues and others.
However, if you are unlucky and try using PaulB's method on a group of fish that are infected with an aggressive and deadly parasite like Velvet or Brook, all the clam guts in the world won't help those fish and you're asking for total losses. So I don't think PaulB's method is right for all instances.

 

[MnFish1]

Well for some time they do in fact contain anti-bodies that literally immobilize theronts. It's not fool proof but work very very well.

Regarding the 6 months time frame, I looked at the Burgess 1992 and Burgess and Matthews 1995 studies.

They could very well be wrong, I don't care to find out . I quarantine 100% of everything and sleep well.

No - they are not wrong (the papers) the original one is correct (and you can easily see where they ended the study at 6 months)- which is the one I quoted. In the second (quoting the first) they mistate the results of the first study. its unknown whether CI immunity last 6 months 7 months a year or 10 years - its never been studied - all we know is that it starts declininbg at 6 months) - and I know it doesnt make a difference with the point you were trying to make - but - I was just correcting the factual basis - which many people here keep repeating.

 

[Mortie31]

I have two fish in quarantine that are as happy and healthy as ever. If they were infected, they are probably enjoying not having to constantly scratch their bodies, swim to the top of the tank for air, or running out of breath. As long as you keep a very close eye on your copper levels (if you are running a medicated quarantine), they will hardly notice and enjoy it more than the completely bare tank at the lfs they came from.

Most who quarantine are not only focused on the new fish but also the livelihood of all of their fish in the display tank. If a fish dies in quarantine because it was already too late for the fish, or the infection had already ran it's course, then at least you know you prevented it from reaching the health of countless other fish.

At what cost to there immune system though? I’m not questioning the efficacy of a quality quarantine. What are your thoughts on the threads on copper resistant ick and velvet? As was recently revealed by hot rocks one of the major advocates of quarantine in here!

 

[mta_morrow]

I follow the @Paul B method.

I get the fish and I put it in the tank. I get fresh live clams every week and then freeze them. Then cut them up to feed my larger fish.

I get a dozen live oysters, mussels, and clams and run them in a blender along with some pellets and nori, then poor into a baggie and freeze. Then cut into cubes, add to a cup of saltwater, add some mysis, and feed. This is every day they get their bacteria.

I’ve added fish that I believe had velvet, had itch for sure, and none of my fish got sick or died.

Some of the fish I added that were sick died quickly, and some are alive and haven’t been sick again.

I don’t debate qt, just sayin what I do cause it makes perfect sense to me.

 

[MnFish1]

At what cost to there immune system though? I’m not questioning the efficacy of a quality quarantine. What are your thoughts on the threads on copper resistant ick and velvet? As was recently revealed by hot rocks one of the major advocates of quarantine in here!

I think that thread is unfortunate - becasue he uses a modified 14 day treatment period with 14 days in a clean tank - to limit copper etc exposure (due to side effects) - this is a great idea - ) but - it doesnt mean there is resistant velvet 'out there' becasue its not a verified protocol.

That said - in that thread its widely discussed that people - including myself) that have contacted companies (seachem in my case) who said that indeed copper resistant velvet indeed exsists - and requires chloroquine - but that MOST OFTEN its found in LFS that are using levels of copper higher than recommended (rather than the oft sited 'low dose copper causing resistance')

 

[Scott Campbell]

I’ve

Ive never dipped an acro in my life, or any coral. I don’t remove plugs or clean the bases of aquaculture, I’ve never had AEFW, red bugs, black bugs or anything, had the odd bacterial infection though over the years... maybe the acro crabs that I have in every coral and dozens of hermits grazing over them constantly or the wrasse and angels picking at them, help... or maybe I’m just very lucky!!! interestingly the US seems to suffer more with AEFW than other countries, just like you seem to have more fish diseases and yet you all dip and quarantine more than any other country... and you have more “sterile” tanks with less diverse life.. potential correlation anyone???

I have mentioned this several times prior - but I honestly think Paul's success is not a result of fish rapidly acquiring immunity to diseases, but rather the dense concentration of organisms in his tank that feed on parasitic organisms. Notably sponges, tunicates, tube worms, clams and such. These organisms can exist in great numbers in a tank like Paul's and will likely consume most parasitic organisms during their free swimming stages. Just as the fish cannot swim away from the parasites in a closed system, the parasites cannot easily escape the organisms filtering them out as food. A more "sterile" tank will afford the parasitic organisms a much friendlier environment in which to thrive.

 

[brandon429]

agreed that is a good call/likely its the sum total of his not from Petco system (substrate, fish, water and stocked diversity from the ocean) doing the lions share. find a way to bottle that diversity so Petco tanks can get more diverse/1 million dollar sales idea
funky pauls reef expander. legit diversity, not prune juice in a bottle

 

[Paul B]

Oh finally you chimed in. Sorry if my thread feels unnecessary. I could have posted in your thread but the last comment was back in July.

I look forward to these discussions and have been having them for decades. Most of those people now left the hobby.

Paul b. You collect mud for lagoons on Long Island

Also live on the island. I would think it might be polluted

It is not, if it were there would be no fish there and yet it is teeming with life as my tank is. I take it right near shore but I no longer tank it from the western Sound. Now I take it whre I live about 60 miles from the city.

So what I meant was to ask people their opinions as to why they don't follow Paul's method.

Many people say they follow my method but in reality, they are just not quarantining which is not my method. My method requires that you feed the fish what I call correctly. No dry food and plenty of living bacteria.

- I believe that he is also very much against prophylactically treating fish during any QT period.

Very much against it unless I get a fish which is receiving last rites and I try to cure it. Not to long ago Igot a small copperband loaded with parasites. Most of the other fish in it's tank in the store already died so I got it for five bucks. (I posted about it and it is in my book)
Before I treated it I put it in my tank and figured I would let him take his chances, but my much larger copperband nearly killed it so i removed him and cured him in a couple of days using a mixture of copper and Quinicrine Hydrocloride. It recovered and I gave him away. That will clear ich in a day. Probably velvet also.

Not to mention that in an ocean environment, tangs can simply swim away from the parasite or other infected fish.

This I doubt.

Not to mention, fish are only immune to ich for a maximum of 6 months after combating the infection. That realistically means you are rolling the dice every time you introduce livestock.

This is wrong. If you have ich happily living in your tank like in the sea, they will continually reproduce by sampling some of your fish (just as they do in the sea and just like human parasites always live on us. Google it.)
The living parasites will keep the fish immune so the parasites can't get to numerous and can't hurt the fish. That is how my fish stay immune for their entire life. My fish never scratch, never.

If only Paul would one day make a thread with a title "Dipping acros is not needed"

I have never dipped a coral.

but what I do know is that the reason ich has not over taken the ocean is simply because there is such a massive amount of water that 99% of free swimmers do not find hosts and die.

No, that is not the reason. The reason is that all fish in the sea are immune. They use my method of eating live food with bacteria and parasites in it. All ocean fish harbor parasites and fish that eat them incorporate those parasites into their own immune system as my fish do. Fish were designed to eat parasites, they were not built to stay away from them.

I get flu shots along with other shots. I do that because modern people are not exposed to the flu enough to become immune to it. The Europeans carried Smallpox here where the natives were not immune so they died.
The natives eventually became immune which is why we still have native Americans.
People became immune from the Plague which is why there are any people left. By the way, there were three forms of Plague. The few people who survived inherited all the land and money from the people who died. The very wealthy people in Europe now are some of the descendants of those survivors.

 

[Paul B]

Tide pool mud and snails. Great stuff. I am not sure if this stuff has anything to do with immunity. I throw it in for the diversity in my gravel as I think it may help with water conditions, but I am guessing.

 

[living_tribunal]

At what cost to there immune system though? I’m not questioning the efficacy of a quality quarantine. What are your thoughts on the threads on copper resistant ick and velvet? As was recently revealed by hot rocks one of the major advocates of quarantine in here!

While there are theronts that are more resistant to copper such as AR1 and AR5, they still die pretty quickly. Not only that, but copper still does a very good job of immobilizing theronts while they are still inside the tomont.

I do worry resistance could continue to get stronger which is why I'm a proponent of a hybrid copper & tank transfer treatment.

And what do you mean the 'cost of their immune system'? Sure, copper will temporarily suppress their immune system. They will soon be in a tank with all kinds of bacteria and other things except for flukes, velvet, brook, ich, etc. Their immune systems will be fine.

The first chart, a, is the AR1 strain average lifetime after being released from the tomont under various alkolinities. The second chart, b, is AR5.

 

[living_tribunal]

A immune system doesn’t prevent them catching parasites it prevents it killing them, because a healthy fish has a strong immune system and survives outbreaks, which is the crux of Paulb’s Philosophy and as soon as you reach for copper you ruin it, as it damages there immune system, and weakens the fish, which makes them more suspect in the long run and vulnerable

Allow me to clarify, regardless of how strong a fishes immune system is, they can still DIE from ich. This is not like taking a flu shot.

 

[MnFish1]

No, that is not the reason. The reason is that all fish in the sea are immune. They use my method of eating live food with bacteria and parasites in it. All ocean fish harbor parasites and fish that eat them incorporate those parasites into their own immune system as my fish do. Fish were designed to eat parasites, they were not built to stay away from them.

You lost me here (to me the rest makes good sense) - I think the research shows that LIKELY fish get low levels of CI in the wild - which their innate immune system can take care of (because the numbers of infectious particles is so low in the wild) - this allows their specific immune system to create antibodies - which will continue to be produced for (probably indefinitely) - as long as the fish is exposed to low-levels of 'name your parasite'. I dont know of any evidence - or reason to believe that 'eating bacteria' keeps fish immune to CI or other parasites (except your theory). There are plenty of bacteria in dead/frozen and even flake food.

 

[Paul B]

- but I honestly think Paul's success is not a result of fish rapidly acquiring immunity to diseases, but rather the dense concentration of organisms in his tank that feed on parasitic organisms. Notably sponges, tunicates, tube worms, clams and such.

This is actually a good theory and I have thought about it a lot. I do have a great amount of sponges in my tank "now".
But for most of the life of my tank,I had no sponges so I dismissed it. I do however feel that sponges are great for the health of a tank, weather they eat parasites, I have no idea.

This blue stuff is all sponge and I have to keep trimming it and throwing it away. I have had it maybe 12 or 15 years and I kind of like it. I am not sure exactly what it is besides sponge because it is also photosynthetic and doesn't crow in the caves where another type of sponge grows.

 

[MnFish1]

While there are theronts that are more resistant to copper such as AR1 and AR5, they still die pretty quickly. Not only that, but copper still does a very good job of immobilizing theronts while they are still inside the tomont.

I do worry resistance could continue to get stronger which is why I'm a proponent of a hybrid copper & tank transfer treatment.

And what do you mean the 'cost of their immune system'? Sure, copper will temporarily suppress their immune system. They will soon be in a tank with all kinds of bacteria and other things except for flukes, velvet, brook, ich, etc. Their immune systems will be fine.

Curious - have you seen the studies that suggest that infectious particles are released into the free-swimming stage in the dark early in the AM and that onluy 5-10 percent of those ever reach a host? Thus the reason for release at night - is that most fish tend to 'sleep in the same spot' Thus when the encysted particles are relleased they are likely to be very quickly attached to the 'same fish'? This doe not mean that most of them are not killed by copper as you suggest - but it could be a method of 'apparent' resistance

 

[Paul B]

Allow me to clarify, regardless of how strong a fishes immune system is, they can still DIE from ich. This is not like taking a flu shot.

I do understand what you are saying. But you should also understand that if my fish never die from ich, even after I add fish many times with that parasite, something is going on to prevent the fish from not only dying, but from becoming sick or infected. I do not give them vaccines or offer up tea leaves to the moon.

Forty years my fish have been immune. Why is that?
Am I lying? I have been posting for many years and many people have seen my tank. Anyone who wants to come here is welcome and if you have a fish with velvet, ich or something else bring it along and throw it in my tank.

Can I do that in your tank?

 

[living_tribunal]

Curious - have you seen the studies that suggest that infectious particles are released into the free-swimming stage in the dark early in the AM and that onluy 5-10 percent of those ever reach a host? Thus the reason for release at night - is that most fish tend to 'sleep in the same spot' Thus when the encysted particles are relleased they are likely to be very quickly attached to the 'same fish'? This doe not mean that most of them are not killed by copper as you suggest - but it could be a method of 'apparent' resistance

Yes I have actually and find it very interesting. The tests were performed in non-medicated tanks I believe which is why the theronts had time. Theront's can make it to fish before the copper kills them, they are already exposed however and will continue to die, even after infecting.

It's the point that when theronts can survive copper long enough to develop cysts on the fish that we need to be worried about.

 

[TaylorPilot]

You lost me here (to me the rest makes good sense) - I think the research shows that LIKELY fish get low levels of CI in the wild - which their innate immune system can take care of (because the numbers of infectious particles is so low in the wild) - this allows their specific immune system to create antibodies - which will continue to be produced for (probably indefinitely) - as long as the fish is exposed to low-levels of 'name your parasite'. I dont know of any evidence - or reason to believe that 'eating bacteria' keeps fish immune to CI or other parasites (except your theory). There are plenty of bacteria in dead/frozen and even flake food.

Kind of like the difference from getting stung by 1 bee or 100 bees?

 

[living_tribunal]

I do understand what you are saying. But you should also understand that if my fish never die from ich, even after I add fish many times with that parasite, something is going on to prevent the fish from not only dying, but from becoming sick or infected. I do not give them vaccines or offer up tea leaves to the moon.

Forty years my fish have been immune. Why is that?
Am I lying? I have been posting for many years and many people have seen my tank. Anyone who wants to come here is welcome and if you have a fish with velvet, ich or something else bring it along and throw t in my tank.

Can I do that in your tank?

Sheesh, that last question stressed me out!

I do think your theory has merit if you are continuously adding a lot of life. If you are re-exposing these fish in a well sized tank every couple of months then they can re-establish the immunity anti-bodies which will prevent them from being re-infected.

Who knows Paul, you may be the person to revolutionize the quarantine process

We can call it laissez-faire disease prevention.

 

[Paul B]

We can call it laissez-faire disease prevention.

I love it and I really wish I knew the exact process of how my fish are immune. Wouldn't it be great to bottle that. Unfortunately, we including me are all guessing as none of us are the God of fish, or hair.
Well, I'm not anyway.

AS much fun as this is, it is late and I am in the middle of doing a lot of electrical work. Since I moved here I have no lights in my living room, and I'm an electrician, so I am wiring them now.

Have a great night and I really do love all you guys. In a Manly sort of way, nothing weird.

Of course I love the ladies better, but I get in trouble for saying that, so i will just think it.

I especially love my Main Squeeze and have for 45 years. Almost as long as my tank is set up.