Do you agree with Paul B's method (no QT) ?

[living_tribunal]

Aquariums have rooms dedicated for qt. Usually in a different building than the dt. They have fancy sterilization systems and what not.
I don't have room in my house for a qt. I don't have an extra room to dedicate to a qt either.

While true they also have to take care of a significantly more diverse array of livestock.

If you look at their protocols it's back to the simple procedure, 30 days in isolation. Most believe in proactive prophylactic treatment, others believe in simple isolation.

It's really not that hard.

 

[living_tribunal]

Imho I feel that quarantining never gives you peace of mind. You are always worried about adding something that could be harboring a pest of some sort. Once you start, you can never stop. Everything must be fully quarantined for months and there will always be that chance that some parasite or bacteria has lived through the process. I remember reading recently from @Humblefish i believe that certain parasites, don't remember if it's velvet or brook, had survived copper treatment past the normal treatment timeframe. Dealing with possibilities like that is way more stressful than an immune natural tank such as many people run.

Most all major fish diseases have a very predictable and measured life cycle, that we know very well at this point. These diseases cannot survive without hosts and most all can 100% be killed with preventative treatments. I'll take 30 days of medication over years of stress any day of the week.

What you may be referring to are encysted tomonts on inverts/coral. This is a longer process but does not require medication. In the study he cited, it took 65 days before the strain of a specific tomont to burst.

Now we know that temperature has an exponential impact on the life cycle of ich and velvet. A small increase of 3 degrees can decrease the life cycle by as much as a week. The study in question had an average aquarium temp of 68 degrees which would easily account for the 65 days for the tomonts to burst.

A newer study found that no tomonts in their study survived past 4 weeks at temperatures of 76 degrees. I don't advocate for only a 4 week quarantine but just something to keep in mind. If the free swimmers from these tomonts don't find hosts, they die. And no ich will be present.

 

[MnFish1]

While true they also have to take care of a significantly more diverse array of livestock.

If you look at their protocols it's back to the simple procedure, 30 days in isolation. Most believe in proactive prophylactic treatment, others believe in simple isolation.

It's really not that hard.

Interestingly - if you look at some of the articles - one large aquarium on the west coast now does observational quarantine for 90 days - because they had a strain of velvet show up at 65 days (observation - not treatment)

To me - the key here is 'what does QT mean'. What is the definition - with all due respect to @Paul B - and I've discussed this with him before - I believe HE means keeping fish for 76 days - not exposed to parasites - after which - they will have none and lose their immunity - (he will correct me if he has changed his definition) - I believe that he is also very much against prophylactically treating fish during any QT period.

So - when we talk about QT everyone shoudl realize that there are 10000 different methods - some of which may work and are safe for the fish - some of which may not work - and are safe for the fish etc etc etc. 99% of people that do reefing do not use @Paul B s method - not becasue it is incorrect or wrong - but merely becasue its impossible to duplicate. its his tank, his lagoon, etc. His filtration, his food, etc. So - to me the original question - is hard to answer - living in the midwest - I dont have access to 'mud from a lagoon'. Does that mean I cant have a successful tank?? no. etc

 

[living_tribunal]

Just like in nature - lets say 50 tangs are exposed to velvet. - how many would survive (40)? iDK - Who wants to do that experiment at home - payng a large amount of money to do so (no one). T here is a fair bit of commentary and articles out there suggesting that tangs are no more or no less susceptible to disease

Not to mention that in an ocean environment, tangs can simply swim away from the parasite or other infected fish. We don't offer our fish that luxury in a small aquarium setting.

 

[Mortie31]

If I had a display full of perfectly healthy expensive fish and was about to introduce a fish I got from a LFS with who knows what in the water. Yes, yes I would. To me it is the same as the anti-vaccination issue. What is more unethical. Asking everyone to vaccinate their kids, or allowing one un-vaccinated kid go to school and get other healthy kids with possible immunosuppressive issues sick.

What a ridiculous analogy... childhood vaccinations have been clinical tested, proven to work and proven to be safe... which of these have your chemoquarantine drugs passed... yes if the fish survives quarantine and therapeutic levels were maintained throughout the quarantine period then they do seem to work, what about safety and the effect on immune system and organ accumulation and the shortened life span and already there are threads already discussed strains resistant to copper... would u vaccinate your kids with such lousy unpredictable outcomes... not a chance my friend

 

[living_tribunal]

Interestingly - if you look at some of the articles - one large aquarium on the west coast now does observational quarantine for 90 days - because they had a strain of velvet show up at 65 days (observation - not treatment)

To me - the key here is 'what does QT mean'. What is the definition - with all due respect to @Paul B - and I've discussed this with him before - I believe HE means keeping fish for 76 days - not exposed to parasites - after which - they will have none and lose their immunity - (he will correct me if he has changed his definition) - I believe that he is also very much against prophylactically treating fish during any QT period.

So - when we talk about QT everyone shoudl realize that there are 10000 different methods - some of which may work and are safe for the fish - some of which may not work - and are safe for the fish etc etc etc. 99% of people that do reefing do not use @Paul B s method - not becasue it is incorrect or wrong - but merely becasue its impossible to duplicate. its his tank, his lagoon, etc. His filtration, his food, etc. So - to me the original question - is hard to answer - living in the midwest - I dont have access to 'mud from a lagoon'. Does that mean I cant have a successful tank?? no. etc

You hit the nail on the head. There are actually standards now via various professional aquarium societies who develop these standards. They typically all define quarantine as simple isolation for an allotted amount of time. Preventative medication is quarantine as is observation in isolation.

 

[Squidward]

A 10 or 29 gallon QT is all fine and good for small fish, but what about the 6 tangs I just got? The naso alone is about 8". Am I supposed to put all 6 tangs in the same 29 gallon tank for 30-60 days and assume that everything will be ok? NO! Big tanks (and big tangs) require BIG QT systems as well (if you QT).

That is the obstacle you made for yourself. I personally wouldn't buy that many large tangs at a time. But if I did, I wouldn't put them all together. I'll do 2 or 3 QT tanks for TTM.

 

[living_tribunal]

What a ridiculous analogy... childhood vaccinations have been clinical tested, proven to work and proven to be safe... which of these have your chemoquarantine drugs passed... yes if the fish survives quarantine and therapeutic levels were maintained throughout the quarantine period then they do seem to work, what about safety and the effect on immune system and organ accumulation and the shortened life span and already there are threads already discussed strains resistant to copper... would u vaccinate your kids with such lousy unpredictable outcomes... not a chance my friend

But quarantine and preventative medications have been measured and analyzed for decades now and are also proven to work.

Most fish hatcheries and aquariums have a team that are dedicated to running quarantine protocols. You can replicate these at low scale and low cost at home to do your best to prevent any disease from making it to your tank.

Not to mention, fish are only immune to ich for a maximum of 6 months after combating the infection. That realistically means you are rolling the dice every time you introduce livestock.

 

[Mortie31]

Not to mention that in an ocean environment, tangs can simply swim away from the parasite or other infected fish. We don't offer our fish that luxury in a small aquarium setting.

Can fish see parasites or other infected fish??

 

[Mortie31]

But quarantine and preventative medications have been measured and analyzed for decades now and are also proven to work.

I said they worked... I’m questioning the safety and in quarantine mortality... please read my posts thoroughly it helps enormously

 

[CyberGuy]

If only Paul would one day make a thread with a title "Dipping acros is not needed" and that he has stories of taking an acropora full of AEFW with eggs and put it in his acro tank display tank and have all his acros build an immunity to the AEFW.

One can only wish.....right?

 

[living_tribunal]

I said they worked... I’m questioning the safety and in quarantine mortality... please read my posts thoroughly it helps enormously

I have two fish in quarantine that are as happy and healthy as ever. If they were infected, they are probably enjoying not having to constantly scratch their bodies, swim to the top of the tank for air, or running out of breath. As long as you keep a very close eye on your copper levels (if you are running a medicated quarantine), they will hardly notice and enjoy it more than the completely bare tank at the lfs they came from.

Most who quarantine are not only focused on the new fish but also the livelihood of all of their fish in the display tank. If a fish dies in quarantine because it was already too late for the fish, or the infection had already ran it's course, then at least you know you prevented it from reaching the health of countless other fish.

 

[MnFish1]

Not to mention, fish are only immune to ich for a maximum of 6 months after combating the infection. That realistically means you are rolling the dice every time you introduce livestock.

I agree with your post in which this was - but this part is not true. The study that looked at CI only measured survival up to 6 months (and counted infection) - at 6 months the number of parasites on 'immune fish' while not zero - was 1/100 (I believe) the amount of parasites on the control fish. No one knows how long immunity lasts. What has been noticed though - is that fish that have been exposed sometime in their lives do better with a subsequent infection than those that have not been

 

[Bassmaster116]

Well i hade issues with ich and brook when i started my tank up in january... i tried everything... nothing worked. untill i stopped trying slapped a 55w uv and let everything just play out. since then ive had no loss due to disease. I had a tang that actually was put in my tank the day i got it... developed a couple spots and guess what i did the normal routine just fed the normal foods a bit more frequently for a week and he’s perfectly fine months later. I do think some stuff just adds to the issue. ive learned as many cool gadgets and as many different ways to overcome something in the hobby sometimes the simplest ways are the best. Also each and every system is different in some way or another as much as we all like to share what works for me may not work for the next guy. Yes their is plenty that is pretty much a standard... i say pretty much because even then their is alot that can vary. I love to get opinions its gives options to build off of and ive learned that the best way to actually learn a thing or two about this hobby is to collaborate and build off of other peoples input but always stick with what works best for you.

 

[living_tribunal]

Can fish see parasites or other infected fish??

I don't have an answer to that but what I do know is that the reason ich has not over taken the ocean is simply because there is such a massive amount of water that 99% of free swimmers do not find hosts and die.

Ich and velvet are much different than us humans being vaccinated. Regardless of how good the fishes immune system is, it cannot prevent ich 100%. The anti-bodies a fish develops only last 6 months as well. This is the key difference here.

 

[TaylorPilot]

What a ridiculous analogy... childhood vaccinations have been clinical tested, proven to work and proven to be safe... which of these have your chemoquarantine drugs passed... yes if the fish survives quarantine and therapeutic levels were maintained throughout the quarantine period then they do seem to work, what about safety and the effect on immune system and organ accumulation and the shortened life span and already there are threads already discussed strains resistant to copper... would u vaccinate your kids with such lousy unpredictable outcomes... not a chance my friend

I think it is a perfectly apt analogy. You have fish that are healthy in a DT but are more susceptible to certain diseases. You get a fish that you do not know and have no way of knowing what is is a carrier for. Is it more or less ethical to allow that unknown fish into the system without making sure it is disease free. As far as the unpredictability, they have pretty good track records when done correctly. Also, getting a flu vaccine doesn't 100% guarantee you won't get the flu. Most of the parents who don't want to vaccinate don't think the vaccinations work either, but we still make them do it to protect the greater population, especially kids that could have immune system issues.

 

[Mortie31]

I’ve

If only Paul would one day make a thread with a title "Dipping acros is not needed" and that he has stories of taking an acropora full of AEFW with eggs and put it in his acro tank display tank and have all his acros build an immunity to the AEFW.

One can only wish.....right?

Ive never dipped an acro in my life, or any coral. I don’t remove plugs or clean the bases of aquaculture, I’ve never had AEFW, red bugs, black bugs or anything, had the odd bacterial infection though over the years... maybe the acro crabs that I have in every coral and dozens of hermits grazing over them constantly or the wrasse and angels picking at them, help... or maybe I’m just very lucky!!! interestingly the US seems to suffer more with AEFW than other countries, just like you seem to have more fish diseases and yet you all dip and quarantine more than any other country... and you have more “sterile” tanks with less diverse life.. potential correlation anyone???

 

[lpsouth1978]

That is the obstacle you made for yourself. I personally wouldn't buy that many large tangs at a time. But if I did, I wouldn't put them all together. I'll do 2 or 3 QT tanks for TTM.

No argument here. I fully understand that I created a QT obstacle for myself by trying to keep 6 tangs. This was done to allow the simultaneous introduction of all the tangs in order to minimize aggression. But, that is my point. Very few reefers purchase and QT 1 fish at a time to be added to their tanks. For small fish, a 10 or 29 can safely house a number of fish. However, multiple QT tanks, or a large QT, are often necessary. If I purchased and QT'd only 1 tang at a time, I would be able to have exactly 1 tang in my DT. Instead, I have 6 living in harmony in my tank and none show ANY sign of problems or aggression.

By the way, I used a tread from R2R to ensure the best chances of success with multiple tangs. All but 2 are from different sub groups of tangs.

 

[living_tribunal]

I agree with your post in which this was - but this part is not true. The study that looked at CI only measured survival up to 6 months (and counted infection) - at 6 months the number of parasites on 'immune fish' while not zero - was 1/100 (I believe) the amount of parasites on the control fish. No one knows how long immunity lasts. What has been noticed though - is that fish that have been exposed sometime in their lives do better with a subsequent infection than those that have not been

Well for some time they do in fact contain anti-bodies that literally immobilize theronts. It's not fool proof but work very very well.

Regarding the 6 months time frame, I looked at the Burgess 1992 and Burgess and Matthews 1995 studies.

They could very well be wrong, I don't care to find out . I quarantine 100% of everything and sleep well.

 

[Mortie31]

Regardless of how good the fishes immune system is, it cannot prevent ich 100%. The anti-bodies a fish develops only last 6 months as well. This is the key difference here.

A immune system doesn’t prevent them catching parasites it prevents it killing them, because a healthy fish has a strong immune system and survives outbreaks, which is the crux of Paulb’s Philosophy and as soon as you reach for copper you ruin it, as it damages there immune system, and weakens the fish, which makes them more suspect in the long run and vulnerable