Do you agree with Paul B's method (no QT) ?

[MnFish1]

Interesting video on QT and conditioning

Makes some good points - I was surprised that he recommended against most hobbiests medicating empirically - as it often causes more harm than good - and if you do medicate only after a microscopic diagnosis.

Actually - the video sounds a lot more like Paul B's methods that others. (i.e. most of the video involves feeding and stress reduction and getting high quality fish - not just the cheapest ones)

 

[Halal Hotdog]

Makes some good points - I was surprised that he recommended against most hobbiests medicating empirically - as it often causes more harm than good - and if you do medicate only after a microscopic diagnosis.

Actually - the video sounds a lot more like Paul B's methods that others. (i.e. most of the video involves feeding and stress reduction and getting high quality fish - not just the cheapest ones)

He did state part of his protocol is to prophylactically treat.

 

[MnFish1]

He did state part of his protocol is to prophylactically treat.

Yes - but he also said he's a professional - that he did not recommend that hobbyists treat empirically during quarantine. Like I said - I was surprised at parts of the video - lets put it this way less than a couple minutes was spent talking about using medications (out of about a hour?) but a lot of time was spent talking about fish selection, stress, buying healthy fish, etc. He spent a LOT of time talking about Quarantine/acclimation - rather than medication.

Paraphrased: Dont go to an online forum for advice about diseases until you have a firm diagnosis - and then need to do a treatment - look at a skin or whatever sample - and then when you're sure what your dealing with (unless its the common parasites - assuming ich or velvet) - go to a forum and ask what to do. (he didnt seem that positive on forums for disease management either)

Im not saying I agree or disagree with that he was saying - I was only trying to same some people that didnt want to watch (a great) video some of the surprising things he said

 

[living_tribunal]

With regards to immunity can we please all agree that germs and bacteria are different from both internal and external parasites?

Thank you!

 

[Punchanello]

PS - in many countries it (I've heard) it is illegal to even purchase these chemicals that people are suggesting are 'absolutely necessary - without a veterinary prescription. Thats another discussion though. Thanks for discussing

That's definitely the case here in Australia. We simply don't have access to the antibiotics that are available to the consumer in the US. I doubt that a vet would even hand them over for fish. If a fish has an infection, you can reduce stress, feed well etc etc. but it will more or less live or die as it will.

 

[code4]

Hi Paul!

I quarantine. Lots of folks here say they only buy fish that look healthy. Some of us must order online. In the end we all do whatever we feel will work. I set up a quarantine tank when I decide to get new fish. While it is cycling I add the new fish to a hospital tank I keep running all the time. Then when the quarantine tank is cycled I put the new guys in it. Then I treat them for internal parasites and anything else as needed. I add pvc, dry pieces of rocks or whatever I think will make them comfortable. They might stay in this tank for months. I am not in a hurry. Why?

 

[living_tribunal]

No, that is not the reason. The reason is that all fish in the sea are immune. They use my method of eating live food with bacteria and parasites in it. All ocean fish harbor parasites and fish that eat them incorporate those parasites into their own immune system as my fish do. Fish were designed to eat parasites, they were not built to stay away from them.

I get flu shots along with other shots. I do that because modern people are not exposed to the flu enough to become immune to it. The Europeans carried Smallpox here where the natives were not immune so they died.
The natives eventually became immune which is why we still have native Americans.
People became immune from the Plague which is why there are any people left. By the way, there were three forms of Plague. The few people who survived inherited all the land and money from the people who died. The very wealthy people in Europe now are some of the descendants of those survivors.

But it is the reason...

"In the vast ocean, with its limitless water volume and powerful, dynamic currents, only a very small number of tomites ever succeed in locating a host. "

Why Isn’t Cryptocaryon irritans a Major Problem for Wild Marine Fish?

During yesterday’s Thanksgiving get-together, which my wife and I host for my side of the family every year, a teenaged nephew asked me about marine ich (Cryptocaryon irritans)—the one fish disease…

www.saltwatersmarts.com

 

[living_tribunal]

That's definitely the case here in Australia. We simply don't have access to the antibiotics that are available to the consumer in the US. I doubt that a vet would even hand them over for fish. If a fish has an infection, you can reduce stress, feed well etc etc. but it will more or less live or die as it will.

We don't have access to real CP either, we have to buy a more saturated version from 'that ebay guy'

 

[Punchanello]

We don't have access to real CP either, we have to buy a more saturated version from 'that ebay guy'

We need an Australia forum on Reef2Reef.

 

[living_tribunal]

We need an Australia forum on Reef2Reef.

I'm not sure why they don't just allow this to be sold over the counter.

 

[Halal Hotdog]

Yes - but he also said he's a professional - that he did not recommend that hobbyists treat empirically during quarantine. Like I said - I was surprised at parts of the video - lets put it this way less than a couple minutes was spent talking about using medications (out of about a hour?) but a lot of time was spent talking about fish selection, stress, buying healthy fish, etc. He spent a LOT of time talking about Quarantine/acclimation - rather than medication.

Paraphrased: Dont go to an online forum for advice about diseases until you have a firm diagnosis - and then need to do a treatment - look at a skin or whatever sample - and then when you're sure what your dealing with (unless its the common parasites - assuming ich or velvet) - go to a forum and ask what to do. (he didnt seem that positive on forums for disease management either)

Im not saying I agree or disagree with that he was saying - I was only trying to same some people that didnt want to watch (a great) video some of the surprising things he said

There were other significant points that were made; 80% of fish evaluated had internal worms. You need to medicate in order to eliminate this, no way around it. I do not really see the stark similarity between his system and PaulB, outside the balanced diverse diet, which is promoted by everyone.

 

[MnFish1]

There were other significant points that were made; 80% of fish evaluated had internal worms. You need to medicate in order to eliminate this, no way around it. I do not really see the stark similarity between his system and PaulB, outside the balanced diverse diet, which is promoted by everyone.

I wrote a large paragraph on why I thought that was the case. He did make that case - and worms can be quickly treated with oral medication. I mean - lets face it - he point blank said 'I dont recommend that hobbyists use antibiotics empirically'. (I think Paul B would agree). He also said except for a few common diseases that He has seen a lot of misinformation when it comes (especially) to copper - but other diseases as well. etc. etc. He spent nearly the entire hour discussing 'buying quality fish' 'from a trusted retailer' 'dont by the cheapest fish' 'only treat disease after using a microscope for diagnosis'. He spent many minutes on acclimation QT with no medication and how to do it properly (dark sides, good flow, water quality, he spent a large amount of time discussing the paramount importance of a fish to be eating well (live foods if possible) with many feeding/day initially (Like Paul B), If you read Paul B's articles - he is not 'just' a dump in the tank person (at least not always).

The case (I believe I understood him to be making (loud and clear) - is that wholesalers should be deworming fish - and using medication - not hobbyists - and that the incorrect use of them has led to immediate fish death and has caused more problems than it has solved - and that with proper fish choice, acclimation, nutrition, stress reduction - that MOST fish can be used with observation QT - medication only when there is a sure diagnosis (not a shotgun approach with multiple treatments).

 

[Punchanello]

I'm not sure why they don't just allow this to be sold over the counter.

I work in regulation and I think it's pretty sound (if inconvenient for us) not to have antibiotics readily available to the public. Antibiotic resistance is a massive problem in humans and the animal kingdom.

Antibiotic resistance rising among dolphins, study reveals

Research in Florida finds 88% of samples have pathogen that resists at least one antibiotic

www.theguardian.com

 

[Fishfreak2009]

Figured I'd add my 2 cents. Over the years I've had multiple tanks, with some very sensitive fish. I've tried about every intro method there is. Now everything gets quarantined including all inverts. Fish are started in a tank with live rock, sand, and live macro for 2 weeks or until well settled and eating well, and are then moved to a traditional hospital tank (pvc and plastic plants and a small dish of sand for wrasses) and treated with a praziquantel as directed on the bottle as well as a slowly ramped up dose of cupramine until it hits manufacturer recommended levels for 60 days, and only then are the fish added to the display. All rock, macroalgae, corals, and inverts go through 80 days of isolation in a fish free system before going into the display. Only organism added to display without quarantine are the live refrigerated copepods

Lost enough fish to velvet and a particularly bad strain of Vibrio bacteria that everyone gets quarantined now. Currently have a mandarin, 2 different pipefish, a leopard wrasse, and a moorish idol all thriving and eating well in my quarantine dosed with cupramine.

 

[Kit_Kat]

I don’t quarantine, I totally trust my fish store to sell me healthy fish and coral. My tank is almost 2 yrs old and never had a problem with sick fish or disease.

 

[nitrodude]

Heres my question to all those who do quarantine-sorry if it's been asked before...

Do you keep all new corals, shrimp, hermits, snails, starfish etc in a fallow tank for 8 weeks?

 

[Paul B]

Do you keep all new corals, shrimp, hermits, snails, starfish etc in a fallow tank for 8 weeks?

Of course I don't do that as it would be 100% opposite of what I believe.
I also never de wormed a fish. Maybe 80% of fish have worms, I never counted, but maybe the worms are eliminated naturally in healthy fish. If not, why do they not harm my fish?

About treating prophalatically (I can't spell that) We are failing to realize the role bacteria play in fish. It's the bacteria that keep the fish healthy. The correct bacteria. Treating with antibiotics or even copper will totally screw up the ratio of bacteria where the fish may never recover.

I wrote extensibly on this on the last quarantine thread and I didn't make that up. The bacteria the fish come to us with from the sea is what they need and it doesn't last forever which is why I feed clams from the sea. That bacteria is what the fish uses to make it's immune system and without a functioning immune system, that fish is very flawed. It is exactly like a person after chemo treatment. Do they look healthy? They may live, but they are miserable.

The correct bacteria is much more important to the fish than having a few intestonal worms that barely hurt the fish and may be eliminated in time with a good diet (but I am guessing)

I know worms can't be to bad as I never had any problems with them and never de wormed anything.

Healthy, spawning long lived fish need that fresh, live bacteria and if you quarantine a fish for an extended amount of time, that bacteria will be taken over by the bacteria in the flake food, or pellets, oatmeal or whatever people feed their fish and the fish will never have an immune system which is why even though I asked 3 times, I still don't see any pictures of old, quarantined, spawning fish in an old system. What happened to those fish? Why aren't they dying of old age in 15 or 20 years? WE are talking about thousands of fish we took out of the sea. Where are they?

Mine are still happily living and making out their wills for when the day comes far into the future as my fish can't get sick. Their bacteria makes sure of that.

Just keep the bacteria alive that the fish came with and you will have no problems.

 

[Jay Z]

@Paul B Feel free to bring any sick fish by to put in my tank system. I ain’t scared!

Don’t expect to get it back, I have so much live rock in my tank the only thing that comes back out are things that don’t move when you go to grab them.

 

[Hermie]

About treating prophalatically (I can't spell that) We are failing to realize the role bacteria play in fish. It's the bacteria that keep the fish healthy. The correct bacteria. Treating with antibiotics or even copper will totally screw up the ratio of bacteria where the fish may never recover.

Mine are still happily living and making out their wills for when the day comes far into the future as my fish can't get sick. Their bacteria makes sure of that.

Just keep the bacteria alive that the fish came with and you will have no problems.

I think there's something to this, even just a few probiotic gummies will mess me up for days

 

[Paul B]

I notice in that video where he states to curtail medications. I wonder where he got that?
He also shows a picture of food which looks like live blackworms and clams, Also looks familiar.