Do you agree with Paul B's method (no QT) ?

[MnFish1]

Quote:
not true at all not even close. Most cases are not from needle users at all. That is a very rare cause of a very rare infection. Also, botox shots dont help plump lips they have nothing to do with lip plumping, that is a common misconception from hollywood i imagine. Also, people getting poisoned from botox shots is a stretch. IT "poisons" them in that they have their neruomuscular junction blocked permanently if that is what poisoning is. There are some reactions to the shot or for those that use substandard products.

Also, the life expectancy of humans is longer now than in 1903.

I got that on line, I didn't make it up and I am not a botulism expert by any means. I just posted what I read.

What Are the Causes of Botulism? Who Is at Risk?

The CDCTrusted Source reports that 65 percent of botulism cases occur in infants or children younger than 1 year of age. Infant botulism is typically the result of exposure to contaminated soil, or by eating foods that contain botulism spores. Honey and corn syrup are two examples of foods that can have contamination. These spores can grow inside the intestinal tract of infants, releasing the botulism toxin. Older children and adults have natural defenses that prevent the bacteria from growing.
According to the CDCTrusted Source, around 15 percent of botulism cases are foodborne. These can be home-canned foods or commercially canned products that didn’t undergo proper processing. The World Health Organization (WHO)Trusted Source reports that botulism toxin has been found in:

• preserved vegetables with low acid content, such as beets, spinach, mushrooms, and green beans
• canned tuna fish
• fermented, smoked, and salted fish
• meat products, such as ham and sausage

Wound botulism makes up 20 percent of all botulism cases, and is due to botulism spores entering an open wound, according to the CDCTrusted Source. The rate of occurrence for this type of botulism has risen in recent years due to drug use, as the spores are commonly present in heroin and cocaine.
Botulism isn’t passed from person to person. A person must consume the spores or toxin through food, or the toxin must enter a wound, to cause the symptoms of botulism poisoning.

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inRead invented by Teads


How Can I Prevent Botulism?

In most cases, botulism is easy to prevent. You can reduce your risk with the following preventative measures:

• Follow proper techniques when canning food at home, ensuring you reach adequate heat and acidic levels.
• Be cautious of any fermented fish or other aquatic game foods.
• Throw away any open or bulging cans of commercially prepared food.
• Refrigerate oils infused with garlic or herbs.
• Potatoes cooked and wrapped in aluminum foil can create an oxygen-free environment where botulism can thrive. Keep these hot or refrigerate immediately.
• Boiling foods for 10 minutes will destroy botulism toxin.

As a rule, you should never feed an infant honey or corn syrup, since these foods may contain Clostridium botulinum spores.

Quote:
Also, the life expectancy of humans is longer now than in 1903.

Yes it is, much longer, but that is due to doctors, hospitals, MRIs, X Rays, Cat scans, drugs, the FDA, etc. Not because our immunity is better today. It is not, it is worse.

If a person today could be transported back to the 1600s or even the 1800s, they would probably not last a week. Just my opinion of course as I am not going back there.




Who said that? I said:

Before we ate canned foods we got botulism from many places as spores but we had immunity from it. We no longer eat dirt or play much in it so I would imagine our immunity to it is lower.

I also didn't say when I was young no one was allergic to anything, I did say:'



And I didn't. We had peanuts all over the place, Now it seems kids are allergic to everything. In my grand Daughters school in Manhattan half the kids have a food allergy. You can't serve peanuts on planes any more or in schools because so many kids are allergic.

If you want to quote me or contradict me, at least quote what I actually said, not what you think I said or implied. Just read all the words I write, not just some of them. I have been around a long time and am not real stupid.

I feel funny even debating this Paul - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5354621/

In the pre-antibiotic era - people died of infections at a much higher rate than they do now. Now - cancer and heart disease., With all due respect to your fish-keeping skills - yoru logic and rationale for your theories does not make scientific or common sense (IMO). You say something - that sounds 'good' and people jump on because you're a 'guru' - but you're wrong.

 

[MnFish1]

This is interesting, I never heard of Herd Immunity but I would like to know more about it.
What is it?

Shaun's explanation of 'herd immunity' - is also not quite correct - but - its close enough - if enough 'people' in the population are 'immune' the disease won't have a chance to 'take hold' in the population (which requires hosts that are newly infected in order to spread'

 

[Bubbythebull]

I used to quarantine...and when something was off, whole tank would catch ick... lately, I have stopped the qt process and just do my best to buy healthy fish. I also do my best to keep the water as stable as possible and feed love feed dipped in garlic and vitamins. In the latter way, I have seen that I may only lose one or two fish due to stress as opposed to half the tank.

 

[S2G]

@Paul B sadly this thread has ended up going around in the circles that they always do, one thing I don’t understand is why no one can show long term survival after quarantining and to the best of my knowledge this must be the 4th thread in which you have asked people to come forward who have succeeded. How do they feed? have they quarantined everything? Have they ever had a CI outbreak? This would be really useful information to share, even if it’s only 5 years worth of info to share... I see dozens of people advocating quarantine but what is the long term outcome? Are all of these tanks shut down after a few years? Something is missing in there arguments, what’s happening in years 2,3, 5 etc. Quarantine isn’t new it’s been around for years, this data must be available..
People say your tank is a unique system that can’t easily be replicated, that may be true, good fish selection, husbandry, biodiversity and feeding are easy to do, but one thing I can say and agree with you on is that I don’t see many fully quarantined tanks that boast longevity and inspiration... unless people start to come forward and show long term success quarantining I don’t see the point in doing it...what’s the point if fish only live 5 years or less... my own personal view is that most of the very vocal advocates of quarantine leave the hobby for whatever reason very quickly...

There's plenty of success both ways. I've seen and done it. My current fish are all 5-8 yrs. I actual bought back my old tank from 07. My previous fish basically all passed with exception of my eel they left the tank top open. I helped them restock and quarantine what I currently have. The foxface was extremely tiny.

 

[Scott Campbell]

@Paul B sadly this thread has ended up going around in the circles that they always do, one thing I don’t understand is why no one can show long term survival after quarantining and to the best of my knowledge this must be the 4th thread in which you have asked people to come forward who have succeeded. How do they feed? have they quarantined everything? Have they ever had a CI outbreak? This would be really useful information to share, even if it’s only 5 years worth of info to share... I see dozens of people advocating quarantine but what is the long term outcome? Are all of these tanks shut down after a few years? Something is missing in there arguments, what’s happening in years 2,3, 5 etc. Quarantine isn’t new it’s been around for years, this data must be available..
People say your tank is a unique system that can’t easily be replicated, that may be true, good fish selection, husbandry, biodiversity and feeding are easy to do, but one thing I can say and agree with you on is that I don’t see many fully quarantined tanks that boast longevity and inspiration... unless people start to come forward and show long term success quarantining I don’t see the point in doing it...what’s the point if fish only live 5 years or less... my own personal view is that most of the very vocal advocates of quarantine leave the hobby for whatever reason very quickly...

Elegance Coral posted in this very thread that his fish live lengthy lives after going through multiple quarantine periods. His fish appear to live as long as Paul's fish. And EC has posted at length about his tank. It is a beautiful tank.

Fish, like humans, can recover from medical treatments and return to a state of health. I spent a full year getting chemotherapy. I can sympathize with what it must be like to be a fish treated with copper. But the treatment kept me from dying and I recovered.

Again - I don't disagree with what Paul does. I strongly believe a good diet (especially a diet of live food growing naturally in the tank); a tank environment that reduces stress (lots of hiding places, room to swim, compatible tank-mates, etc.); lots of microfauna diversity; and a lot of microfauna (worms, copepods, sponges, etc) relative to fish volume is the key to fish living a long life. I don't honestly believe "immunity" even much comes into play. I don't believe my fish have immunity to parasites. I just think my tank (with thousands of tube worms and sponges) is a fairly hostile environment for parasites. My wrasse makes it a fairly hostile environment for flat worms as well. And my tang and rabbitfish make it a hostile environment for algae. It's simple predation rather than immunity.

If constant exposure to disease was a great thing, all pre-school teachers would live to be 100. But they don't. Immunity certainly plays a role - but diet, stress, luck, environment and many other factors play a much greater role in life expectancy. What happens after the fish enters the tank is more important than whether the fish went through QT or not.

 

[TaylorPilot]

Elegance Coral posted in this very thread that his fish live lengthy lives after going through multiple quarantine periods. His fish appear to live as long as Paul's fish. And EC has posted at length about his tank. It is a beautiful tank.

Fish, like humans, can recover from medical treatments and return to a state of health. I spent a full year getting chemotherapy. I can sympathize with what it must be like to be a fish treated with copper. But the treatment kept me from dying and I recovered.

Again - I don't disagree with what Paul does. I strongly believe a good diet (especially a diet of live food growing naturally in the tank); a tank environment that reduces stress (lots of hiding places, room to swim, compatible tank-mates, etc.); lots of microfauna diversity; and a lot of microfauna (worms, copepods, sponges, etc) relative to fish volume is the key to fish living a long life. I don't honestly believe "immunity" even much comes into play. I don't believe my fish have immunity to parasites. I just think my tank (with thousands of tube worms and sponges) is a fairly hostile environment for parasites. My wrasse makes it a fairly hostile environment for flat worms as well. And my tang and rabbitfish make it a hostile environment for algae. It's simple predation rather than immunity.

If constant exposure to disease was a great thing, all pre-school teachers would live to be 100. But they don't. Immunity certainly plays a role - but diet, stress, luck, environment and many other factors play a much greater role in life expectancy. What happens after the fish enters the tank is more important than whether the fish went through QT or not.

This was kind of my school of thought. Using biological means to reduce and control the levels of parasites inside the system. I wonder if a very large over-sized UV light couldn't create the same results. The only difference may be that the UV kills everything that passes through it.

 

[fishybizzness]

I've learned in life that there are many things that science cannot explain. Doesn't mean it's not possible or doesn't exist...

 

[NShirke]

I’m a huge believer of,”prevention is better than cure” phrase. I would say, yes. I take QT as TSA screening before you board a plane. Majority of passengers are legit/harmless, but why do we want to take a chance, right!!!!

I’ve seen a lot of people using QT, but there are plenty which don’t. I want to keep my DT healthy. Although, there may not be any issue with the fish, I want to eliminate any chance of spreading disease.

 

[MnFish1]

I've learned in life that there are many things that science cannot explain. Doesn't mean it's not possible or doesn't exist...

I've learned in life that there are many things that science can explain. Whats interesting about this thread - is that both sides seem to want to ignore the ways that science explains the 'apparent success' of 2 opposite methods.

 

[Paul B]

In the pre-antibiotic era - people died of infections at a much higher rate than they do now. Now - cancer and heart disease., With all due respect to your fish-keeping skills - yoru logic and rationale for your theories does not make scientific or common sense (IMO). You say something - that sounds 'good' and people jump on because you're a 'guru' - but you're wrong.

There is nothing to debate. I agree with you and this. Antibiotics save a lot of people including me a few times. A lot of things today save more lives than years ago even bandaids.
I said, or I thought I said that our "immunity" was stronger years ago when we didn't have all these life saving things. Not that Neanderthals had lousy ambulances or HOMs.

Our immunity is lower now because it can be due to modern medicine. We no longer need to depend 100% on our immunity because of antibiotics. (Just like many fish we keep don't have to rely on immunity because they were quarantined)

Of course you know that antibiotics are not the panacea we thought they were as the bacteria are becoming immune to many of them.

- that sounds 'good' and people jump on because you're a 'guru' - but you're wrong.

MN, I am probably wrong about many things, but when you call me wrong, you need to de sure what I am wrong about.
I was talking about our "natural" immunity, not our medical care today.

As to heart disease I am not sure but I would imagine our ancestors didn't get much heart disease due to the fact that they ate what humans are supposed to eat and not to many Twinkies, Starbucks double moccha coppachino's and Dunkin Donuts Coolata's.

They also didn't drive their 3,000lb, souped up car two blocks to get a hamburger. They ran after a Woolly Mammoth and texted him when he ran by to distract him, and trip him so they can carve out a McDonalds quarter pounder, which they ate raw (after they scraped off that woolly stuff I would imagine) maybe with a little Dodo dung on it.
Their immune system took care of any parasites on that Mammoth. If we ate a raw animal today we would have to call 14 paramedics so we could get airlifted to a hospital.

I am also not sure about cancer. They were built to live outside just like gorilla's, Aardvarks and Duck Billed Platypuses and I am not sure if they get either heard attacks or cancer.

We get all those things now because most of us wear clothes (the few that don't, should) and we are not used to the sun as only a small part of our bodies ever get any. We are also not living in Africa where we were probably designed. Our diet is totally geared to make us sick as almost none of it is natural. Humans only eat 8 or 10 grains (I am totally guessing on that number so don't Google it) but hundreds of different grains used to be eaten by our ancestors. They are now either extinct or to difficult to sell commercially. WE also didn't wash those grains.

Almost all the vegetables we eat were modified for the market as well as any meat we eat.
Virtually all of it was grown with pesticides and fertilizer.
The air we breath is no where near what it was 1,000 years ago. Today it is filled with airplane exhaust, coal dust, DDT, Agent Orange, And that fragrance Paris Hilton used to sell.

Did you ever see a wild cow? I saw some things that were close to our dairy cows in Viet Nam but they were skinny and looked like different animals.
We were also not built to drink cow milk. That was for baby cows.

Yes, I know I am ranting. We are going out on our boat and the people coming with us are not ready yet so thank you for bearing with me.

 

[MnFish1]

There is nothing to debate. I agree with you and this. Antibiotics save a lot of people including me a few times. A lot of things today save more lives than years ago even bandaids.
I said, or I thought I said that our "immunity" was stronger years ago when we didn't have all these life saving things. Not that Neanderthals had lousy ambulances or HOMs.

Our immunity is lower now because it can be due to modern medicine. We no longer need to depend 100% on our immunity because of antibiotics. (Just like many fish we keep don't have to rely on immunity because they were quarantined)

Of course you know that antibiotics are not the panacea we thought they were as the bacteria are becoming immune to many of them.



MN, I am probably wrong about many things, but when you call me wrong, you need to de sure what I am wrong about.
I was talking about our "natural" immunity, not our medical care today.

As to heart disease I am not sure but I would imagine our ancestors didn't get much heart disease due to the fact that they ate what humans are supposed to eat and not to many Twinkies, Starbucks double moccha coppachino's and Dunkin Donuts Coolata's.

They also didn't drive their 3,000lb, souped up car two blocks to get a hamburger. They ran after a Woolly Mammoth and texted him when he ran by to distract him, and trip him so they can carve out a McDonalds quarter pounder, which they ate raw (after they scraped off that woolly stuff I would imagine) maybe with a little Dodo dung on it.
Their immune system took care of any parasites on that Mammoth. If we ate a raw animal today we would have to call 14 paramedics so we could get airlifted to a hospital.

I am also not sure about cancer. They were built to live outside just like gorilla's, Aardvarks and Duck Billed Platypuses and I am not sure if they get either heard attacks or cancer.

We get all those things now because most of us wear clothes (the few that don't, should) and we are not used to the sun as only a small part of our bodies ever get any. We are also not living in Africa where we were probably designed. Our diet is totally geared to make us sick as almost none of it is natural. Humans only eat 8 or 10 grains (I am totally guessing on that number so don't Google it) but hundreds of different grains used to be eaten by our ancestors. They are now either extinct or to difficult to sell commercially. WE also didn't wash those grains.

Almost all the vegetables we eat were modified for the market as well as any meat we eat.
Virtually all of it was grown with pesticides and fertilizer.
The air we breath is no where near what it was 1,000 years ago. Today it is filled with airplane exhaust, coal dust, DDT, Agent Orange, And that fragrance Paris Hilton used to sell.

Did you ever see a wild cow? I saw some things that were close to our dairy cows in Viet Nam but they were skinny and looked like different animals.
We were also not built to drink cow milk. That was for baby cows.

Yes, I know I am ranting. We are going out on our boat and the people coming with us are not ready yet so thank you for bearing with me.

Where I think you're wrong is:

1. Feeding parasites to fish is not the major way (If at all) that immunity is produced (at least you havent shown any reason to think this is true) (So I think this rationale is 'flawed'.). Besides - there is bacteria in every fish food that we feed - including flake food.
2. The post above notwithstanding - The life expectancy now vs when mammoths roamed the earth is considerably higher - despite all of the 'unnatural, bad' things we do. (that is proof that your rationale above is 'flawed')
3. There is no data that suggests that 'our immunity is lower now due to antibiotics'. We are still exposed to tons of bacteria - and most people don't take antibiotics very often (they are not often prescribed unless there is a documented infection). In fact there is data that shows that our immune systems are more active now (the rise in autoimmune disease and allergies) than in prior years.

Note - none of this is disagreeing with your method or its success. I think the 'other side' of QT also uses flawed rationale at times to bolster their ideas.

 

[TheKingInYellow]

I do think there is a balance to be struck, and I QT but only for observation. My LFS runs hyposalinity (1.015) and copper in their holding and display tanks so I need to QT if for no other reason than it takes two weeks to safely bring that salinity up.

Having said that I don't use any medications in QT prophylactically, I just see that as a stressor during an already stressful adjustment. Even without that I would still QT a minimum of three weeks for observation. I see no reason not to.

 

[Paul B]

Mn, we had this discussion before a few times I think. You know I love you but I disagree with your post from the first #1 to the last "S" in the word Ideas.

A few points, you know by bacteria I don't mean the bacteria on flake food which could be from your hands or your cat. I mean disease bacteria and flake food was sterile when they made it because it is baked.

In the sea fish eat parasites with every meal like they are supposed to and if they don't get those parasites, they will never be immune from them. (I know you know that).

Our life expectancy is higher now because of medicine, not immunity. Some of the Pharaohs died in their 90s because they were pampered and didn't have to fight or hunt. And that was over 2,000 years ago.

Yes, quarantining is flawed and so is my system, I will have to give you that. If either system is followed to a tee, they will both work.
I never said quarantining would not work. I said it makes your fish weaker as they have no functioning immune system and we can't feed those fish natural food like they are supposed to eat like living food.

If you put a quarantined fish in the sea it would croak very fast. My fish would open up an LFS and get along fine.

 

[PanchoG]

I think the thread name does not invite us to agree, it is just asking us if we agree with @Paul B and what do we think about his method. I believe it is a good opportunity for all of us to learn something about the “other” method.

I do think we should not medicate fish who are not sick, that only stress the fish and its organs, remember that every medicine has side effects. IMO we are seeing a similar problem as asthma; decades ago there was asthma but nowhere near to the levels or severity we observe today. After several studies the doctors found our “sterile” environment in the cities is making us weaker by taking us away from the common virus and bacteria, our immune system is not prepared because we are not exposed anymore. The same happens in an aquarium when its inhabitants are QT, their immune systems are weakened, the result is major outbreaks when a parasite or bacteria is released inside by fish, coral, inverts or rock additions.

Both methods can be successful but IMO no QT is easier/safer if you follow a method to keep bacteria in the tank all the tank and you properly feed your fish with live food.

 

[Victoria M]

@Paul B sadly this thread has ended up going around in the circles that they always do, one thing I don’t understand is why no one can show long term survival after quarantining and to the best of my knowledge this must be the 4th thread in which you have asked people to come forward who have succeeded. How do they feed? have they quarantined everything? Have they ever had a CI outbreak? This would be really useful information to share, even if it’s only 5 years worth of info to share... I see dozens of people advocating quarantine but what is the long term outcome? Are all of these tanks shut down after a few years? Something is missing in there arguments, what’s happening in years 2,3, 5 etc. Quarantine isn’t new it’s been around for years, this data must be available..
People say your tank is a unique system that can’t easily be replicated, that may be true, good fish selection, husbandry, biodiversity and feeding are easy to do, but one thing I can say and agree with you on is that I don’t see many fully quarantined tanks that boast longevity and inspiration... unless people start to come forward and show long term success quarantining I don’t see the point in doing it...what’s the point if fish only live 5 years or less... my own personal view is that most of the very vocal advocates of quarantine leave the hobby for whatever reason very quickly...

I can go on record to say that all my fish were old when they died. The oldest being an 11 year old bonded percula clown pair. My queen angel and flame hawk were 8+ years. They died of a tank mishap while we were out of town. It was heart breaking... And they all had gone through CP treatment, several had gone through copper. They all lived through several missteps in a hospital tank while I let my tank go fallow many years ago.
Pauls success as a marine hobbyist is like a colorful complex puzzle with several pieces being key. You must step back and look at the whole picture in order to “see” it. Each piece of his aquarium keeping practice creates the success. Each piece must be present in order for the picture puzzle to be successfully completed. You can not just pluck out several practices (pieces) , and the easiest ones at that, and expect to be as successful as he has been. And a big part of his success and hobby is inaccessible to most of us. His perpetual collecting plays a much larger part in the biodiversity and possibly pathogen exposure and immunity than most people, including him possibly realize, I believe. It is not the absence of QT that drives his success. I think if Paul set up a dry pukani rock tank cycled it with bottled bacteria, starting adding fish right to the tank, started feeding your new fish exactly what you feed your other tank you would likely find yourself with a case of amyloodinium and likely several fish would die. It is not the absence of QT (or QT with medications) that drives Pauls success. It is the sum of all his practices that keep his fish healthy. I also think that if Paul were to set up a smallish QT tank to observe and feed up his new purchases with water changes made from his established tank he would likely find that none of his new fish would disappear ever. Well, almost never.

 

[Paul B]

Victoria, Good Morning. It is always nice to see your bright colorful and correct writing on here and I really appreciate your input.

I really hope you are feeling better and you don't look like this ;Meh

Whats Pukani rock?

 

[Victoria M]

Victoria, Good Morning. It is always nice to see your bright colorful and correct writing on here and I really appreciate your input.

I really hope you are feeling better and you don't look like this ;Meh

Whats Pukani rock?

LOL! You are incorrigible! Luv you Paul! I do feel better and today I look like this ;Bucktooth

 

[mta_morrow]

I just added a male blue throat trigger, 4 chromis, and a diamond spot goby from LA.

Temp and salinity acclimation and directly to the display. This makes 29 fish, no qt, live bacteria filled foods every day for 18 months now. I have yet to lose a fish to disease. I have been following @Paul B bacteria philosophy since I first read it.

 

[Paul B]

Are you going bald yet?

 

[mta_morrow]

Are you going bald yet?

Still have a full head of hair. It is changing color though