Do you ever feel bad about..

[MnFish1]

I have to add, 4) they’re treated better than fish who are caught for eating.

I think the unethical thing you mention could’ve applied to anyone with any pet. People keep dogs who don’t get walks like they should, or hamsters that don’t have adequate space. I have one friend who believes keeping any animals “captive” is unethical. (He says they’re enslaved.) I think it’s okay to make your own determination on it and as long as someone isn’t abusive, I won’t judge. Those small tank crisis you mention toe the line of being abusive, imo.

One problem. with today's society (In my opinion) is that everyone is afraid 'to judge') - To me its ok to 'judge' - but unless its illegal - not proper to hold something against someone else

 

[Bob Weigant]

I dont feel bad about keeping my fish. They eat well and most importantly ( to me ) is they are free from predators. They can roam the tank without a worry

 

[SaracensRugby]

Well never thought the thread would ge this much response, which is good to see that there is so much energy around the hobby. Many great points brought up along the way on all sides, as the question at hand as someone clarified and I agree with (sorry forgot who), it all starts with where your baseline “ethics” are. That’s why I personally think the zoo reference (i think in analogies) fits best here. I come it at as such: nature is “cruel” yes. But is that a feel good justification to keep fish that are used to miles of freedom in a small box? Do they live longer in our boxes or in the ocean? Who knows. For an N of 1 The easy answer is to say many die off along the way in the ocean due to natural activities. Just because we can should we? Just a question, not a judgement. Certainly I have fish in a box so I am open to judgment as it were.

Put another way, lets say a “superior” species landed on earth tomorrow and put a bunch of us in cages (after eating many of us as dinner and set up quotas for hunting us yearly); if we are fed adequately and can mate periodically, would we be happy in boxes when all we could do is eat and mate? Probably not (although just mating all day might be fun right). Again, I like hearing all perspectives as I believe this hobby furthers the cause of the oceans more than it hinders. And being on top fo the food chain has its benefits/.

 

[Tamberav]

No but I don't have any tangs or oversized fish in too small of an aquarium.

But ya sure...I would feel like a jerk if I had a blue Tang in a 30g...baby or not.

I would also feel like a jerk if my idea of exercising my dog was to tie it out in the yard like some of my neighbors dogs who I am sure have never been on a walk in their life.

 

[DibsOnMcRibs]

I voted “No”. Once upon a time I did. Now I only feel bad when one of my fish is struggling do to my own incompetence.

Currently I have 5 fish in my tank (and 2 in my girlfriends) all of which are captive bred.
1 standard ocellaris
1 picasso clown
1 phantom clown
1 orange storm clown
1 mandarin dragonette
1 yellow tang
1 swallowtail angelfish

I’d love to get my hands on a captive bred blue tang but I don’t currently have the water volume to justify it.

 

[Bleigh]

One problem. with today's society (In my opinion) is that everyone is afraid 'to judge') - To me its ok to 'judge' - but unless its illegal - not proper to hold something against someone else

I agree and Oh. I can be judgey. ;Happy I teach science teachers. I tell them when they’re wrong. It always surprises them. They all have this idea that they have to tip toe around wrong answers to not negatively impact self esteem. I have a few issues with it. 1) other students may then think the wrong answer is right because you didn’t explicitly say it’s wrong. 2) by not teaching them it’s okay to be wrong when they’re actually wrong, it supports the idea that being wrong is bad and reduces creativity and healthy risk taking. 3) i believe it’s contributing to the entitlement phenomenon.

I’ll be nice to you, but if you’re saying something that’s wrong, I’m going to tell you.;Hilarious

 

[Bleigh]

Well never thought the thread would ge this much response, which is good to see that there is so much energy around the hobby. Many great points brought up along the way on all sides, as the question at hand as someone clarified and I agree with (sorry forgot who), it all starts with where your baseline “ethics” are. That’s why I personally think the zoo reference (i think in analogies) fits best here. I come it at as such: nature is “cruel” yes. But is that a feel good justification to keep fish that are used to miles of freedom in a small box? Do they live longer in our boxes or in the ocean? Who knows. For an N of 1 The easy answer is to say many die off along the way in the ocean due to natural activities. Just because we can should we? Just a question, not a judgement. Certainly I have fish in a box so I am open to judgment as it were.

Put another way, lets say a “superior” species landed on earth tomorrow and put a bunch of us in cages (after eating many of us as dinner and set up quotas for hunting us yearly); if we are fed adequately and can mate periodically, would we be happy in boxes when all we could do is eat and mate? Probably not (although just mating all day might be fun right). Again, I like hearing all perspectives as I believe this hobby furthers the cause of the oceans more than it hinders. And being on top fo the food chain has its benefits/.

That started out sounding so nice, and ended with me laughing. That was great. I’d be like the clown fish who bites his owner the second the hand went into the tank. ;Hilarious

 

[jeeperreefer]

my opinion is that open water fish that naturally swim long distances should be left in the ocean. the smaller rock dwelling fish i am ok with in an aquarium. just my opinion.

 

[lion king]

Yes I feel bad for keeping them in a glass cage, I do feel like a hypocrite. If it were up to me I would shut the whole thing down, but they are here and need a responsible home. I do enjoy them so that's where the guilt comes from, but I rationalize by saying "if it weren't for me they would be dead within a year". At least with me they have a chance at a long somewhat happy life.

 

[flsalty]

I thought this was an odd question to ask, but I see 33% do feel bad. I'm a little shocked.

When I was a kid we used to go to Cedar Point, an amusement park in Ohio. They had an aquarium there. One of the tanks had a single Mola mola (Ocean Sunfish). No other fish in that one, plus it was just a bare tank. I used to feel bad for him. Then I read up on them and realized he probably had no idea where he was.

I don't believe fish have anything that remotely resembles human emotion. They aren't pining away for the open ocean.

 

[Bleigh]

I thought this was an odd question to ask, but I see 33% do feel bad. I'm a little shocked.

When I was a kid we used to go to Cedar Point, an amusement park in Ohio. They had an aquarium there. One of the tanks had a single Mola mola (Ocean Sunfish). No other fish in that one, plus it was just a bare tank. I used to feel bad for him. Then I read up on them and realized he probably had no idea where he was.

I don't believe fish have anything that remotely resembles human emotion. They aren't pining away for the open ocean.

True. But my clown fish definitely recognize me. Maybe just as the food lady. But they react very differently to me than to others who come up to the tank. So they can see out of it, if nothing else. I’m not going to stop reefing, but I think considering the ramifications helps ensure that we’re stewards of the oceans rather than abusers.

 

[flsalty]

True. But my clown fish definitely recognize me. Maybe just as the food lady. But they react very differently to me than to others who come up to the tank. So they can see out of it, if nothing else. I’m not going to stop reefing, but I think considering the ramifications helps ensure that we’re stewards of the oceans rather than abusers.

I doubt they have any concept of what you are beyond a shape that occasionally emits food into the tank when it approaches. I don't think they have any concept of "human", "lady", or "keeper", etc. Sorry. I know most of us enjoy anthropomorphizing our animals. It makes it fun. But it doesn't have any real place in the discussion of ethics.

I do agree there can be ramifications associated with things like overfishing, using cyanide, etc. But that is a different discussion than "is it cruel to keep a fish in a tank".

 

[EMeyer]

I doubt they have any concept of what you are beyond a shape that occasionally emits food into the tank when it approaches. I don't think they have any concept of "human", "lady", or "keeper", etc. Sorry. I know most of us enjoy anthropomorphizing our animals. It makes it fun. But it doesn't have any real place in the discussion of ethics.

I do agree there can be ramifications associated with things like overfishing, using cyanide, etc. But that is a different discussion than "is it cruel to keep a fish in a tank".

This. Fish are really, really, really not intelligent. There is a reason I brought up carrots in my previous post

I mean, I have killed houseplants by not watering them. I regret it when it happens. Its unfortunate. But I don't think it would be accurate to say I feel guilty about it. More like, this is something I failed at and I feel bad that I failed. A little bad. It was a houseplant, after all. It doesnt keep me up at night.

IMHO the ethics of fish in a box are MUCH closer to the ethics of how to treat houseplants than the ethics of how to treat human beings.

 

[LadyMac]

I don’t, but I am part of the IBC SMP, or International Betta Congress Species Maintenance Program. This has nothing to do with reefs. However the program is dedicated to helping many species of betta who are critically endangered to vulnerable. The way it works is that people will breed and then release some fish back into their habitat to keep it going. I’m sure there is something similar for species in the oceans?

Anyhow I can see how keeping fish in an aquarium can help certain species as a whole. And there are those who are mostly man made creations, like some of the clowns we keep. Similar to hybrid cichlids and corals and such. We can certainly use our little pieces of the lakes and oceans as a tool to educate others, to help the younger generation understand why we should keep our waters clean and how we will all thrive by doing our best.

Just some morning ramblings on my part this am. Lol.

 

[SaracensRugby]

Its interesting, where do you draw the line then on anthropomorphizing animals? Now I am not arguing that fish are different than a houseplant, but certainly data coming out shows that some animals have deeper understandings/feelings/whatever than previously thought. So is our understanding limited to our ability to understand their communication, etc? Who knows but where do you draw the line? For anyone who has read **** Deus by Yuval Harari you will have an eye opening read on humans and the “control” we think we have on our decision making. if you look at the human race from a 10000 foot view, it may not appear that humans have much in the way of ethics with our treatment of each other either. But, even though I sometimes feel bad, it won’t stop me from keeping some fish, responsibly governed in a tank.

 

[Rilo]

I've had this in my tank.

I was treating GHA at the time in my tank when it REALLY got out of control. I dosed Reef Flux.

What I did was turkey baster it off but it all came back real fast. So I left it alone and only turkey bastered corals that had been bothered by it. Over time it died off. I'm hoping the Protein skimmer skimmed it out over time.

 

[Paul B]

True. But my clown fish definitely recognize me. Maybe just as the food lady. But they react very differently to me than to others who come up to the tank. So they can see out of it, if nothing else.

My fish definitely recognize me, even if I wear those glasses with the fake nose. But they are not that smart so they don't wag their tails or anything. They just text me

 

[CC13]

I feel bad pretty much every time I go scuba diving/snorkeling on vacation. You see just the most abundance of fish and life in the ocean and they look so alive, it really is a sight of beauty.

When I get back home, even though I take care of my fish and tank, I can't help but wonder how much more fun they would be having in the ocean with billions of gallons of water and all their friends, rather than what seems like a 600 gallon prison lol

 

[MnFish1]

I feel bad pretty much every time I go scuba diving/snorkeling on vacation. You see just the most abundance of fish and life in the ocean and they look so alive, it really is a sight of beauty.

When I get back home, even though I take care of my fish and tank, I can't help but wonder how much more fun they would be having in the ocean with billions of gallons of water and all their friends, rather than what seems like a 600 gallon prison lol

This is the one thing I feel bad about - if you look at the fish on the reef many of them are in schools - or paired - thats really difficult to do in a tank of any size (unless you're in a zoo) - now of course the reason for schooling behavior is predator avoidance - but still.

 

[David Matthews]

There have been a couple times when Ive felt bad for fish but it was usually bc of its owner not doing as much research as previously thought necessary or getting picked on and no way to get the fish out of the tank. Ive since bought an acclimation box but nothing is guaranteed in this hobby. In the case of larger tangs etc. that just gives me more incentive to build some larger tanks. I wouldnt say I feel bad for the fish though in many instances other than someone not trying to care for a fish and it needlessly suffering due to someones laziness or lack of commitment.