Does anyone dose ammonia and/or how would one try?

[schuby]

It's been stated on here by @Randy Holmes-Farley that ammonia changes back and forth to ammonium very quickly in our reef tanks. This means that it doesn't matter if we dose ammonia or ammonium, it will change into one or the other, as determined be other factors. I don't remember what the other factors were: possibly, pH or something else.

 

[Subsea]

Yes, this issue was brought up in the discussion and is the reason I started this thread. Many of the chemicals we put in our tank have the possibility of overdosing. That does not concern me. I do not think this is an idea for a newbie or for those mathematically challenged, but with a background in engineering a little chemistry math does not make me overly concerned especially given the resource of this forum as a backup.

You guys really should read the thread link I posted above. It's quite interesting.

Of course, dosing ammonia will grow corals and macro with no adverse effects. I always used it in grow out tanks, but I added other minerals.

In my display tanks, feeding fish introduces much more than ammonia.

 

[flampton]

Of course, dosing ammonia will grow corals and macro with no adverse effects. I always used it in grow out tanks, but I added other minerals.

In my display tanks, feeding fish introduces much more than ammonia.

Yes totally agree with this. You can't get away with just ammonium dosing to replace food. It's just a better way to manage low nitrogen levels in the tank that is already fed well.
----------------
Now....
One of the things that isn't clearly understood is the amount of nitrogen flux through an average aquarium.

I made a thread that got very little traction but it outlines the amount of nitrogen(and phosphate) in a small amount of food.

What's in a food - PE Calanus phosphate and potential ammonium (Will shock you)

Hi All, Was just breaking down a specific food I feed to my young fish. They all have tiny mouths currently so PE calanus it is. I was curious how much nitrogen (potential ammonium) and phosphorus (phosphate) was added to my aquarium with each cube. I think the overall numbers will shock you...

www.reef2reef.com

Basically 1 cube of PE calanus adds a little over 1 ppm of nitrogen (potential ammonium) to a 20 gallon aquarium. And that's not much food at all.

Now you might say well it is used by the fish. Well the fact is that heterotrophs are massive nitrogen wasters. Think about an adult fish. If it eats a cube of food then it will release the same amount of nitrogen as ammonium that it took in, as the fish is full size, it's releasing nitrogen at the same rate it incorporates nitrogen. And yes even growing fish will waste most of it.

This massive amounts of nitrogen(phosphate) flux is why I believe fishless coral tanks just end up not working well unless the aquarists understands this and mimics this in some way. (It's way to in depth to go into in this thread but also carbon/vitamin flux needs to be considered as well as mineral bioavailability changes)

So hopefully I haven't come across as saying ammonium is the key to everything. Just a decent tool in the tool chest.

 

[attiland]

It's a fine plan to dose ammonia, but you need a good system to dose it slowly and monitor so that levels never significantly rise.

Why not just add more fish/snails etc?

 

[brandon429]

They contribute to whole waste pellet stores and work for the tank as cleaning, but straight ammonia is fast used fast converted into various living systems

 

[SMSREEF]

Why not just add more fish/snails etc?

This is a good option. Even only inverts.
Here is a good article on ammonium excretion by invertebrates.

https://faculty.sites.uci.edu/biodiversity/files/2011/03/bracken2007.pdf

 

[ingchr1]

Why not just add more fish/snails etc?

You could as long as your tank can support them. To me support also includes hidings places for each fish so they have a safe place to go, reducing stress. I have four fish in my 40 gallon AIO with a decent amount of rock, but feel I'm maxed out on hiding places. So I decided to start dosing NH4Cl to bring up NO3. My results thus far are a few posts back. I suppose I could add fish that stay in the open water, but what I have now all hide (yellow tail Blenny, red Firefish, possum Wrasse and orchid Dottyback). Don't see any of them at night or if something startles them.

 

[brandon429]

I like that your seneye data showed 1.5 hours ish to process the dose. First practical measure of the rate of aquarium conversion / processed nh3 for the thread.

 

[ingchr1]

I like that your seneye data showed 1.5 hours ish to process the dose. First practical measure of the rate of aquarium conversion / processed nh3 for the thread.

Yes, and it's consistent.

Here is last night.

 

[Subsea]

Yes totally agree with this. You can't get away with just ammonium dosing to replace food. It's just a better way to manage low nitrogen levels in the tank that is already fed well.
----------------
Now....
One of the things that isn't clearly understood is the amount of nitrogen flux through an average aquarium.

I made a thread that got very little traction but it outlines the amount of nitrogen(and phosphate) in a small amount of food.

What's in a food - PE Calanus phosphate and potential ammonium (Will shock you)

Hi All, Was just breaking down a specific food I feed to my young fish. They all have tiny mouths currently so PE calanus it is. I was curious how much nitrogen (potential ammonium) and phosphorus (phosphate) was added to my aquarium with each cube. I think the overall numbers will shock you...

www.reef2reef.com

Basically 1 cube of PE calanus adds a little over 1 ppm of nitrogen (potential ammonium) to a 20 gallon aquarium. And that's not much food at all.

Now you might say well it is used by the fish. Well the fact is that heterotrophs are massive nitrogen wasters. Think about an adult fish. If it eats a cube of food then it will release the same amount of nitrogen as ammonium that it took in, as the fish is full size, it's releasing nitrogen at the same rate it incorporates nitrogen. And yes even growing fish will waste most of it.

This massive amounts of nitrogen(phosphate) flux is why I believe fishless coral tanks just end up not working well unless the aquarists understands this and mimics this in some way. (It's way to in depth to go into in this thread but also carbon/vitamin flux needs to be considered as well as mineral bioavailability changes)

So hopefully I haven't come across as saying ammonium is the key to everything. Just a decent tool in the tool chest.

As you have pointed out, this is not a newbie conversation. Considering that most macro & coral will have N ratios > 30:1 and that most corals & macros prefer ammonia over nitrate.

 

[Jon_W79]

Why not just add more fish/snails etc?

Adding more fish to small and medium sized reef tanks can be very difficult(you may be very limited in choices and the fish may not add much ammonia to the aquarium)if you follow fish aquarium size recommendations, because of territorial and compatability issues.

 

[ingchr1]

Could the NH4Cl be dosed via an ATO?

In my case I use about 1 gallon of ATO water in three days. I would have to add 24 drops of what I'm using (Dr. Tims) to that gallon of water. I'm currently dosing 8 drops per day. My ATO container is 2 1/2 gallons.

 

[attiland]

You could as long as your tank can support them. To me support also includes hidings places for each fish so they have a safe place to go, reducing stress. I have four fish in my 40 gallon AIO with a decent amount of rock, but feel I'm maxed out on hiding places. So I decided to start dosing NH4Cl to bring up NO3. My results thus far are a few posts back. I suppose I could add fish that stay in the open water, but what I have now all hide (yellow tail Blenny, red Firefish, possum Wrasse and orchid Dottyback). Don't see any of them at night or if something startles them.

Fair enough

 

[sagedrake690]

Oooh oh! I been trying this! I been performing experiments guys! I can answer other questions if you want! I been dosing 1/2 cup urine a day to bring back my plant growth. I'm using a 55gal as an experiment tank.

Human urine is composed primarily of water (95%). The rest is urea (2%) broken down into ammonia over time, creatinine (0.1%), uric acid (0.03%), chloride, sodium, potassium, sulphate, ammonium, phosphate and other ions and molecules in lesser amounts.

A New Artificial Urine Protocol to Better Imitate Human Urine - Scientific Reports

Artificial urine has many advantages over human urine for research and educational purposes. By closely mimicking healthy individuals’ urine, it may also be important in discovering novel biomarkers. However, up until now, there has not been any specific protocol to prove the similarity in terms...

www.nature.com

This was for plants though. My tanks alk is still dropping. Im at about 16 now.

 

[sagedrake690]

Once I get it stable and safe Im gonna add pest coral like kenya tree for experiments.

 

[YankeeTankee]

@Randy Holmes-Farley or anyone else who might know, I need a little clarification

1. Is NH4 much less useful or not useful for corals? In other words, is only ammonia useful and not ammonium? If so it seems there should be a big focus on raising pH so that NH3 is a bigger proportion of total ammonia.

2. Randy discussed how dosing ammonia is technically challenging, is ammonium hydroxide also challenging and where's a good place to get the pure stuff?

3. It sounds like it doesn't matter whether you dose Ammonium chloride or hydroxide but it may be useful to know that the chloride form will slightly lower ph/alk while the hydroxide form will slightly raise it. Is this all correct?

4. Food sources, does anyone have any info on which foods will lead to more ammonia in fish waste? So we can achieve higher ammonia through diet? I saw a post by @flampton where he discusses ammonia/feeding pe calanus. Flampton, there was a surprisingly high amount correct? Do you think other foods might lead to more or less and which are they?

 

[sagedrake690]

I been experimenting with dosing urine. I know it sounds insane but here.

Urine Composition: What’s Normal?

Urine is a liquid waste material produced in and excreted by the body. Secreted by the renal tubules, it accumulates in the urinary bladder and is excreted via the urethra. While it is composed of 91 to 96 percent water, it contains many other components, both solid and liquid.

www.news-medical.net

Urea

Redirect Notice

I have been dosing at 1/2cup a day for 5 days. I have no coral but my plants have bounced back and no readings on any ammonia, nitrates or nitrates during the whole day. I took 5 reading each 3hrs apart. You will also get plankton blooms. Its basic fert and is sterile until it hits the ureathra. Use a little peroxide or just dump it in. If you put your hand in the tank before, you might as well have dunked your wang too. No diff in bacteria and the urine will honestly have less than your hand ever will.

 

[brandon429]

We would not think this thread has a bearing on proving how cycles work but it does


when people move tanks to new homes, test kits/$12 ones state that the move caused a sustained ammonia upwelling lasting weeks.


yet we know from this thread there is no stall for free ammonia, our tanks gobble it within the hour. Mini cycles are a false notion. Ammonia either rises to death and loss cascade, or it trends to safety within an hour, you can all see here.


just because we move rocks and fish, there is no mechanism for sustained ammonia release and non control by the same surface area prior able to control the bioload.

false testing is the case in every mini cycle ever posted.


https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/upgrade-disaster.777167/


maxi - cycles aren’t fake, though.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

@Randy Holmes-Farley or anyone else who might know, I need a little clarification

1. Is NH4 much less useful or not useful for corals? In other words, is only ammonia useful and not ammonium? If so it seems there should be a big focus on raising pH so that NH3 is a bigger proportion of total ammonia.

2. Randy discussed how dosing ammonia is technically challenging, is ammonium hydroxide also challenging and where's a good place to get the pure stuff?

3. It sounds like it doesn't matter whether you dose Ammonium chloride or hydroxide but it may be useful to know that the chloride form will slightly lower ph/alk while the hydroxide form will slightly raise it. Is this all correct?

4. Food sources, does anyone have any info on which foods will lead to more ammonia in fish waste? So we can achieve higher ammonia through diet? I saw a post by @flampton where he discusses ammonia/feeding pe calanus. Flampton, there was a surprisingly high amount correct? Do you think other foods might lead to more or less and which are they?

1. You cannot usefully distinguish ammonia from ammonia in seawater. No matter what you add, both will be present at a ratio exactly determined by the pH.

2. Ammonia solutions (ammonium chloride or hydroxide, for example) are fine to dose, if done slowly enough. I'm just reacting the the "pure" ammonia comments.

3. The only difference will be the effect on alkalinity and local ph where added. Ammonium hydroxide (or aqueous ammonia) will have a net neutral effect on alkalinity and slightly raise pH. Ammonium chloride will tend to slowly lower alkalinity and will be mostly neutral to pH.

4. All foods will add most of the N in them as ammonia after consumed by fish, and that N content is based mostly on the protein content.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I been experimenting with dosing urine. I know it sounds insane but here.

Urine Composition: What’s Normal?

Urine is a liquid waste material produced in and excreted by the body. Secreted by the renal tubules, it accumulates in the urinary bladder and is excreted via the urethra. While it is composed of 91 to 96 percent water, it contains many other components, both solid and liquid.

www.news-medical.net

Urea

Redirect Notice

I have been dosing at 1/2cup a day for 5 days. I have no coral but my plants have bounced back and no readings on any ammonia, nitrates or nitrates during the whole day. I took 5 reading each 3hrs apart. You will also get plankton blooms. Its basic fert and is sterile until it hits the ureathra. Use a little peroxide or just dump it in. If you put your hand in the tank before, you might as well have dunked your wang too. No diff in bacteria and the urine will honestly have less than your hand ever will.

I cannot see why you would want to do this. If you really want to add urea (I don't), you can buy purified urea cheaply.

Urine will contain thousands (literally, thousands have been detected) of potentially undesirable things, including medications you are taking.