Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

[threebuoys]

In case you're not aware, every day - I go to the 'unanswered threads' and answer questions perhaps 5-10/day or more. I do not say 'google it' or study up and make a decision. I give my opinion. I try to give a lot of help to a lot of people on this forum. So - I think your comment is a fair bit off base.

Yet you continue to critique the answer I gave to your hypothetical (which at the time - I did not realize was a hypothetical - but instead someone who had read a fair bit of this thread). You even admit above that you knew how I would handle an ammonia problem - and in part 1 of your question - thats what I recommended that your friend do. I'm beginning to wonder why it is that you keep implying I've said things that I have not?

Clearly with 11,000 messages you are a major contributor to R2R. I've read your posts on many different threads and I appreciate them and I'm sure I've learned from them.

Everything I've posted since 7:00 last night has been within a hypothetical framework and I tried hard to make that clear. I have assumed your responses to me were also offered within that same hypothetical framework, which is why I continued to pursue it.

With your level of experience, I have no doubt you are well equipped to deal with water quality problems that might arise. I don't have nearly as much experience as you, but I'm fairly confident I would have a good idea of how to proceed should I encounter a problem.

I think the suggestions you have given to @Dan_P and @taricha are good and I hope they are able to use them.

What has bothered me is your reluctance to have any hesitancy to caution a hobbyist who doesn't understand the details that Seachem has not provided information about what is in Prime nor scientific evidence that Prime actually works as a detoxifier. Instead you seem to only be focused on the fact that no one has been able to prove it doesn't work. I make this comment because I believeit is true both as in relates to the thread as a whole as well as the hypothetical new hobbyist situation I tried to pose.

The problem I experienced and mentioned in my last post had nothing to do with ammonia. It had everything to do with suppliers not being forthcoming with important information and vendors not sharing negative reviews. We as hobbyists need to hold suppliers feet to the fire to be responsible for their products. We have no FDA that at least tries to protect us. R2R has a huge user base. My experience in the short time I've been a member is that it's the most effective on line forum in which I've ever participated.

I am wondering if we might have reached the end of a productive discussion. What do you think?

PS - the loser (no offense) of a productive discussion as you put it - always says that - I would suggest we await the results from my email with Seachem - which - you seem to suggest is 'impossible' - because they do not respond

I have reached this point for my comments, so @MnFish1 yo win.

 

[DrZoidburg]

We can say, however that the mechanism he wrote down does not happen, because the end product NH2SO3- which ammonia is proposed to be bound into does not do
numbers 2), 3), 4), and 5) above.

It does do number 2 your just overdoing sulfamic acid in your test. Your effecting again the end molecule indophenol oxidation/reduction. This is why your not seeing color change in excess. Also not buffering to nsw? Right just water, left sulfamic acid. If you run the test this way you wont see a color change.

 

[Brew12]

Apologies for not reading the entire thread so it may have been discussed but....

What if Prime "detoxifies" ammonia by blocking its absorption into the fish? I am far from a chemist or biologist so it may not be worth considering. I'm just thinking that it's ability to block absorption may not scale such that a normal dose protects against 1ppm so a double dose must protect against 2ppm.
I'm not sure how the amphipods would fare with or without Prime at 1ppm ammonia, it may not harm them for a long period of time depending on pH so testing could be a challenge.
Anyway, it's just a thought that I hadn't seen discussed in the pages I did read thru.

 

[Dan_P]

Not sure which website you are referring to, but scientific publications suggest it does work:

For example:

Effect of Sodium Hydroxymethanesulfonate on Ammonia and related water quality parameters

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Amit-Sharma-157/publication/323392105_Effect_of_Sodium_Hydroxymethanesulfonate_on_Ammonia_and_related_water_quality_parameters/links/5a937d6baca272140565cede/Effect-of-Sodium-Hydroxymethanesulfonate-on-Ammonia-and-related-water-quality-parameters

Looking into ClorAm-X next. It too interferes with salicylate test. Not sure about the validity of results on the referenced poster.

 

[Dan_P]

Apologies for not reading the entire thread so it may have been discussed but....

What if Prime "detoxifies" ammonia by blocking its absorption into the fish? I am far from a chemist or biologist so it may not be worth considering. I'm just thinking that it's ability to block absorption may not scale such that a normal dose protects against 1ppm so a double dose must protect against 2ppm.
I'm not sure how the amphipods would fare with or without Prime at 1ppm ammonia, it may not harm them for a long period of time depending on pH so testing could be a challenge.
Anyway, it's just a thought that I hadn't seen discussed in the pages I did read thru.

Seachem links lowering ammonia concentration to detoxification.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Looking into ClorAm-X next. It too interferes with salicylate test. Not sure about the validity of results on the referenced poster.

How do you know that the salicylate method used in that paper is interfered with by hydroxymethanesulfonate?

It is the Nessler test that is known to be interfered with by some of these ammonia binders (at least, that is what I understood when I wrote my ammonia article and what Seachem claims about Prime).).

 

[MnFish1]

Yeah, let's leave amquel, ClorAm-x for a different discussion for another day.

I think it needs discussion, it just doesn't clarify the current one.

It was brought up by Randy.

 

[MnFish1]

Seachem links lowering ammonia concentration to detoxification.

I am not clear that this is the case. What they say is that there is a product that binds free ammonia and renders it non-toxic - which is a reversible process. The actual concentration of 'ammonia' is exactly the same. They state several times on their website - that there alert badge shows an ammonia decrease. Why its not doing that here - I don't know. I agree with @Brew12 - that its entirely possible that the ammonia being bound is less toxic to gills, skin, etc. I also have not heard any reply to anyone with information as to whether there are 2 ingredients in Prime - one for chlorine and one that acts as an 'ammonia binder'.

 

[MnFish1]

What has bothered me is your reluctance to have any hesitancy to caution a hobbyist who doesn't understand the details that Seachem has not provided information about what is in Prime nor scientific evidence that Prime actually works as a detoxifier. Instead you seem to only be focused on the fact that no one has been able to prove it doesn't work.

Thanks for ending this discussion. I gave you 2 thumbs up - not to be sarcastic, but because you complimented my attempts to help on this site - I appreciate it

BTW, for the record - I would caution EVERYONE to take EVERYTHING a manufacturer tries to sell you 'with a grain of salt (pun intended). This includes SeaChem, ReefRoids, Amquel, etc, etc, etc. As a matter of fact - I look up every products website before I buy. I don't think its unreasonable

 

[Dan_P]

How do you know that the salicylate method used in that paper is interfered with by hydroxymethanesulfonate?

It is the Nessler test that is known to be interfered with by some of these ammonia binders (at least, that is what I understood when I wrote my ammonia article and what Seachem claims about Prime).).

My underlying assumption is that a salicylate method has not been invented that does not use bleach or convert the ammonia to monochloramine.

Salicylate tests generate a chloramine intermediate. These water conditioners neutralize chloramines or the bleach used to generate the chloramine intermediate which you know already but I mention for those who might not. I recently discussed this with @taricha. He confirmed that sodium hydroxymethane sulfonate (ClorAm-x) can neutralize the bleach reagent used in the API, Red Sea and another (Hach?) ammonia test. This would make it look like there is less total ammonia in a test sample than there really is. I believe he has also shown that Prime interferes with nitrate and nitrite tests, making it look like Prime reduces the concentration of these species. I could imagine this goes for ClorAm-X as well.

 

[Dan_P]

I am not clear that this is the case. What they say is that there is a product that binds free ammonia and renders it non-toxic - which is a reversible process. The actual concentration of 'ammonia' is exactly the same. They state several times on their website - that there alert badge shows an ammonia decrease. Why its not doing that here - I don't know. I agree with @Brew12 - that its entirely possible that the ammonia being bound is less toxic to gills, skin, etc. I also have not heard any reply to anyone with information as to whether there are 2 ingredients in Prime - one for chlorine and one that acts as an 'ammonia binder'.

This is the beauty of deceptive advertising. It can mean anything or nothing.

 

[taricha]

3. I pointed out that at least according to Seachem, there is more than one active agent in Prime. You didn't respond to that.

Briefly, it's been clear that it's a dechlorinator and we've been spending the whole time tryingt to figure out if it's a dechlorinator AND something else.
Most of my checks about how it interacts with various test kits (salicylate total ammonia, NO3, NO2 etc) have been what does it do compared to a dechlorinator like thiosulfate. I have yet to see it do things much differently, except drop pH a bit.

For example here's a quick and dirty Chloramine tap water check.
API Total ammonia test says my tap water chloramine registers as 0.4ppm total ammonia. (edit: This number may not be super accurate, I've never used total ammonia test to quantify chloramine ammonia, but it ought to be detected as easily as ammonia)

pH buffered to ~8.2. Top is tap water, middle is reacted with thiosulfate, and bottom is (duplicates) reacted with 2x dose of Prime (brand new bottle - opened this morning!)


Like in literally every other test - I see the dechlorinator. I see no evidence of a supposed ammonia binding ingredient.

It does do number 2 your just overdoing sulfamic acid in your test.

No. re-read my post. I went down to 0.1mg/L Nitrogen of sulfamic acid.

number 2) - this is left to right zero, 0.1, 0.3 and 1.0 mg/L Nitrogen of the sulfamate made with a solution of Loudwolf 99% pure sulfamic acid in tank water.

 

[MnFish1]

This is the beauty of deceptive advertising. It can mean anything or nothing.

All good - but you still didn't respond. The only question to me here is the following:

Seachem has a test developed - that they sell - for ammonia (free) - thats supposed to measure a decrease in free ammonia after Prime. There have been multiple studies like yours - over the years - including on @AquariumScience blog/website. If you research most or all of them - they have conflicting results from what Seachem says. So - something (I agree with you) is off. Its PROBABLY the method Seachem is using for testing as compared to the aquarium owner. But - as I've repeatedly said - you guys may very well be correct. The key word is detoxify. I do not believe that you have disproven that. (and except for anecdote, I do not believe Seachem has proven it). But I'm sorry - I dont get how you call out a company for 'deceptive advertising' - with your data. When you have not shown any reliable evidence that Prime does not detoxify (An in vivo claim) - with your testing. Seneye - also says - dont rely on ammonia levels with Prime added for 24 hours. So - who do we believe - Seneye? Seachem? Or your (IMHO - overly broad statements) - when you're unwilling to do the testing required to prove what you're saying. What you're doing is inferring that Prime does 'nothing' for ammonia - because of 'test kits'. All tests have confounding issues. Like I said - Call Seneye - Call Seachem - explain what you found - and ask for an answer.

IMHO - its a disservice to the 'hobby' to make a claim that 'xxxx does nothing' - when you're not sure. Its a service to the hobby to try to verify claims made by manufacturers.

 

[MnFish1]

Briefly, it's been clear that it's a dechlorinator and we've been spending the whole time tryingt to figure out if it's a dechlorinator AND something else.
Most of my checks about how it interacts with various test kits (salicylate total ammonia, NO3, NO2 etc) have been what does it do compared to a dechlorinator like thiosulfate. I have yet to see it do things much differently, except drop pH a bit.

For example here's a quick and dirty Chloramine tap water check.
API Total ammonia test says my tap water chloramine registers as 0.4ppm total ammonia. (This may not be valid)

pH buffered to ~8.2. Top is tap water, middle is reacted with thiosulfate, and bottom is (duplicates) reacted with 2x dose of Prime (brand new bottle - opened this morning!)


Like in literally every other test - I see the dechlorinator. I see no evidence of a supposed ammonia binding ingredient.







No. re-read my post. I went down to 0.1mg/L Nitrogen of sulfamic acid.

Dont take this as a criticism - I find it really hard to have the pictures in the middle of an explanation - I'm not being picky - hopefully - just saying - perhaps something like 'this is what I did'. 'This is what I found' . The pictures below show the actual tests (and BTW - the actual tests are very helpful

 

[MnFish1]

Dont take this as a criticism - I find it really hard to have the pictures in the middle of an explanation - I'm not being picky - hopefully - just saying - perhaps something like 'this is what I did'. 'This is what I found' . The pictures below show the actual tests (and BTW - the actual tests are very helpful

PS especially when you say 'this may not be valid'...?

 

[taricha]

PS especially when you say 'this may not be valid'...?

yeah. that was absurdly vague on my part - editing it now. I meant only the quantification of ammonia present in chloramines ("0.40 ppm total ammonia") from my tap water using API.
It ought to work because the test reaction turns ammonia into chloramine anyway during the test but I've never done a calibration in that situation.
The amount is not badly out of line with the color that dechlorinated water generated on the disks.

 

[taricha]

But - as I've repeatedly said - you guys may very well be correct. The key word is detoxify. I do not believe that you have disproven that. (and except for anecdote, I do not believe Seachem has proven it). But I'm sorry - I dont get how you call out a company for 'deceptive advertising' - with your data. When you have not shown any reliable evidence that Prime does not detoxify (An in vivo claim)

I would point out that you are backing away from the simple interpretation that Seachem themselves gave you.
That the disks read NH3, and they should read lower after Prime.
They do not. This can be confirmed by anyone who has the disks, prime, ammonia and can buffer/control pH in saltwater. Let it go an hour or so to get good even color on the disks and done.

Although If your position is that Prime probably doesn't lower NH3, but it may do something we have no evidence of, that seachem doesn't claim, (and no idea if it makes any biological sense at all) that just makes organisms not hurt by swimming in NH3, then I suppose we're pretty close in agreement.

 

[Malcontent]

I found this review paper on ammonia/ammonium determination methods a month ago. It's interesting and it references some studies where PTFE plumbing tape is used to separate ammonia/ammonium.

 

[MnFish1]

I would point out that you are backing away from the simple interpretation that Seachem themselves gave you.
That the disks read NH3, and they should read lower after Prime.
They do not. This can be confirmed by anyone who has the disks, prime, ammonia and can buffer/control pH in saltwater. Let it go an hour or so to get good even color on the disks and done.

Although If your position is that Prime probably doesn't lower NH3, but it may do something we have no evidence of, that seachem doesn't claim, (and no idea if it makes any biological sense at all) that just makes organisms not hurt by swimming in NH3, then I suppose we're pretty close in agreement.

No I'm not - in fact - with regards to Seachem - part of what I stated I read on their (and other websites) - as I told you the other day - I emailed them - and just now received a reply - and am waiting for the answer to a followup. I have not backed away from anything - I said 'I do not use Prime', I have no skin in the game of defending Seachem. I said and I'll say it again - YOURE definition of detoxify - differs from mine. I said from the start - do a fish experiment. Even with bait fish eventually. You do not want to do that - instead we're involving all sorts of potentially confounding variables - which may or may not show what you are trying to show. It remains my position - Seachem has told the world on their website - what their product - and tests are supposed to do. Your tests (and tests on a couple other sites) do not agree with that. All good.

But - If what you're saying is 'true' - that Seachem touts a product that supposedly tests that their product works - and its not true - Thats a huge accusation. Its an accusation I'm not willing to accept based on your results. Especially since other posts on various sites - suggest that the Seachem alert badge does indeed work with Prime and the fact that Seachem has not bothered to complain (AFAIK) about the sites that claim as you do - and btw - this is not original - it is a debate thats been going on since the2010's.

 

[Dan_P]

All good - but you still didn't respond. The only question to me here is the following:

Seachem has a test developed - that they sell - for ammonia (free) - thats supposed to measure a decrease in free ammonia after Prime. There have been multiple studies like yours - over the years - including on @AquariumScience blog/website. If you research most or all of them - they have conflicting results from what Seachem says. So - something (I agree with you) is off. Its PROBABLY the method Seachem is using for testing as compared to the aquarium owner. But - as I've repeatedly said - you guys may very well be correct. The key word is detoxify. I do not believe that you have disproven that. (and except for anecdote, I do not believe Seachem has proven it). But I'm sorry - I dont get how you call out a company for 'deceptive advertising' - with your data. When you have not shown any reliable evidence that Prime does not detoxify (An in vivo claim) - with your testing. Seneye - also says - dont rely on ammonia levels with Prime added for 24 hours. So - who do we believe - Seneye? Seachem? Or your (IMHO - overly broad statements) - when you're unwilling to do the testing required to prove what you're saying. What you're doing is inferring that Prime does 'nothing' for ammonia - because of 'test kits'. All tests have confounding issues. Like I said - Call Seneye - Call Seachem - explain what you found - and ask for an answer.

IMHO - its a disservice to the 'hobby' to make a claim that 'xxxx does nothing' - when you're not sure. Its a service to the hobby to try to verify claims made by manufacturers.

I noted before that I thought this discussion might have run its course and has stopped being productive. I feel we are going in circles.