Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

[Malcontent]

Their ammonia test and detector badge are probably OEM'ed by Pacific Sentry. What if they changed the construction of the detectors relatively recently? So the old design showed Prime working but the new one doesn't? Kind of a long shot but hey...

 

[taricha]

To me the key here is why do some people (and its been reported before) - find it impossible to show a lower free ammonia after Prime - YET - other's can. IDK.

I'll make the dumb guess that the difference is controlling pH vs not.
Got a link to the accounts of successful use with the badge?

 

[Dan_P]

To me the key here is why do some people (and its been reported before) - find it impossible to show a lower free ammonia after Prime - YET - other's can.

I think this might be one of the reasons for the uncertainty about whether Prime works. Simply stated, when a measurement of total ammonia is made in the presence of Prime, it is not invalid because Prime interferes with the measurement. If a measurement of free ammonia decreases upon addition of Prime, then we have a controversy. Where are the free ammonia measurements that decrease upon the addition of Prime?

 

[Dan_P]

Their ammonia test and detector badge are probably OEM'ed by Pacific Sentry. What if they changed the construction of the detectors relatively recently? So the old design showed Prime working but the new one doesn't? Kind of a long shot but hey...

Agree about this being a long shot.

Most hobbyists don’t realize how much free ammonia concentration can be decreased by simply lowering the pH by tenths. When pH is unknown, free ammonia measurements before and after adding X are not valid evidence that X affected the ammonia concentration.

 

[Dan_P]

Their ammonia test and detector badge are probably OEM'ed by Pacific Sentry. What if they changed the construction of the detectors relatively recently? So the old design showed Prime working but the new one doesn't? Kind of a long shot but hey...

One more thing about this sensor

• Unaffected by chemicals – ammonia stabilizers and other chemical agents won’t affect the performance of the sensor.

Another objection to our results might be removed

 

[taricha]

Been thinking about the tap water line of argument.

Prime is useful as a water conditioner - it does neutralize Chlorine, and it works fine in Freshwater even in areas using Chloramines - and seems to help in QT tanks.

We need to seriously consider the possibility that the level of ammonia that Prime is meant to "detoxify" is only that contained in tap water from chloramine. And it's possible that this level is not actually enough to cause toxic effects that we'd see.

My tap water only has like ~0.5ppm ammonia from chloramine. The max allowed chloramine is 4ppm which gives you 1.09ppm total ammonia nitrogen. At pH of 8.1, that's only 0.075ppm NH3-N, and even at pH 8.4 it's 0.14ppm NH3-N.

"This is supported a recent analysis by Ip et al. (2001) and Randall & Tsui (2002) of the data presented by USEPA (1984, 1989) that indicated that the mean acute toxicity value for 32 freshwater species was c. 2.3 mg NH3–N/L compared with 1.5 mg NH3–N/L for 17 seawater species. For the five most sensitive species the values were 0.79 mg NH3–N/L and 0.68 mg NH3–N/L for fresh water and sea water respectively."
Ammonia in estuaries and effects on fish
[edit: this is too low. It's a typo or unclear writing in the source I linked. It says mg/L of NH3-N, but it's clear by rereading the larger context in the paper that these numbers here are referring to TOTAL NH3+NH4-N. The correct value is the more commonly quoted one that is elsewhere in the paper

"The toxicity of unionized ammonia (96 h LC50) to freshwater fish is in the range 0.068–2.0 mg/L NH3–N
(EIFAC, 1970; Seager et al., 1988; Russo & Thurston, 1991). Acute toxicity for marine species is in the range 0.09–3.35 mg/L NH3–N depending on species, temperature and pH."]


Since any tank with light or a biofilter can knock these (tap water) levels of ammonia out in a very short time - well under a day, I think the acute toxicity levels quoted above are a better indicator for expectations of fish mortality.
So the max chloramine ammonia allowable from tap water is only ~1/5 of the acute toxic NH3-N concentration of the "sensitive" group of fish. Is anyone in the reef hobby putting something more sensitive than that in a new tank cycling from tap water?
[edit: actually the max allowable chloramine contains ammonia (at pH 8.4 = 0.14mg/L NH3) to be just above the acute (96hr) lethal concentration for the most sensitive marine fish (0.09 mg/L NH3) . But it's well below the acute toxicity for most fish. Do we keep any fish in a new / quarantine tank, cycling from tap water that are in this sensitive group? Do we have any LC50 NH3 data for specific hobby "first fish" to evaluate the question of whether the ammonia from chloramine could be acutely toxic?]

My point is, "detoxifying" ammonia may be as moot as detoxifying Nitrate. It probably wasn't going to be (noticeably) toxic anyway.

 

[MnFish1]

I received an answer from Seachem:

1. They are more than happy to discuss with anyone that has questions by phone or Email.
2. As to the testing - Neither test may show an immediate reduction in free-ammonia. For example - If you do (as Seachem recommends to test an alert disk) - place it over a windex bottle - it takes some seconds to change to 'toxic'. If you put it back in 'free air' - where theoretically there is no 'NH3 vapor' - it does NOT immediately change to SAFE.
3. About the alert test itself - Lets say you add 1 ppm total ammonia to a beaker - at aquarium pH. The Alert badge goes to whatever level - If you then add prime, it can take up to 24 hours to FULLY return to the safe zone. (see point # 2). According to Seachem - this does not mean the NH3 is not detoxified, but instead is a function of the test. In vivo experiments show an improvement in fish exposed to ammonia - though the Prime will not 'fix' any damage done.
4. With the Multitest the time frame is shorter. But the sample in either case should be thoroughly mixed for an hour BEFORE TESTING.
5. An overdose of prime will not affect the tests.
6. Each circumstance is going to be different - and they do not recommend using these test kits for scientific experiments per se.
7. They do generally not release 'their studies' to the public because the answer then becomes 'Of course Seachem is going to say when THEY test their products- its going to work'. But - for people doing scientific work (for publication - I don't know if R2R is considered 'publication'), they are happy to discuss. (paraphrased).

These are not 'exact quotes', but I did re-read to the Seachem tech and they were ok with me posting this information. Anyone else with questions can call them (though I hope they do not have a barrage of calls).

 

[MnFish1]

Agree about this being a long shot.

Most hobbyists don’t realize how much free ammonia concentration can be decreased by simply lowering the pH by tenths. When pH is unknown, free ammonia measurements before and after adding X are not valid evidence that X affected the ammonia concentration.

Likewise, (and I agree, BTW), It is also not known whether part of the way Prime detoxifies ammonia is by lowering pH some. The key here is not 'free ammonia' - IMHO -its 'does Prime detoxify free -ammonia. I continue to think you're going about this in a laudable - but incorrect way.

1. Seneye says - Don't rely on Seneye measurements after dosing Prime for 24 hours. If you want to find out 'why' - you can ask them. But - if they say it - I'm going to tend to believe it.
2. I responded with Seachem's response in another post - and spoke to them again this AM and added more information. IMHO - in some ways you are doing a scientific test with reagents and tools that are not designed to test your thesis. There are so many possibilities none of us have thought about. None of these tests test whether Prime 'detoxifies' Free Ammonia. But that is the title of the thread?

 

[taricha]

Thanks @MnFish1 I appreciate the effort you are doing on this.
(short version, none of these points would alter how we did the tests we've done.)

This is good background for those trying to think about how these disks and films work. We do find that you should leave the disks in the sample for longer than you think just to make sure you aren't fooling yourself. Coloring up is indeed much faster than coloring down. For this reason, thoroughly mixing Prime with the ammonia sample before adding the disks is of course necessary. I will usually check the disks after minutes, hours, day+ in a sample just to see if something shows up that's "different" and changes what I see ( it doesn't - results are stable).

4. With the Multitest the time frame is shorter. But the sample in either case should be thoroughly mixed for an hour BEFORE TESTING.

"Prime® removes chlorine and chloramine almost instantly upon being added to water, and will immediately detoxify ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. "
Immediately = 1 hour I suppose

In all seriousness, I found that waiting 30 minutes after mixing was sufficient to avoid the initial unreliable response of the disks. Also just waiting a longer equilibrium time with disks in the sample worked too.

1. Seneye says - Don't rely on Seneye measurements after dosing Prime for 24 hours. If you want to find out 'why' - you can ask them. But - if they say it - I'm going to tend to believe it.

Interestingly, this is quite testable. You and Seneye suggest that if the device is in a sample with ammonia and Prime is added, then then seneye is moved to a (pH matched) sample that also has Prime and low/no ammonia, that the seneye will be unresponsive and not correctly record the new lower level of ammonia for a long time, perhaps 24 hours.

What do you think will happen if we actually do the test? I suppose it would be pointless to do from your perspective, if your answer would remain "I don't know why they say it doesn't work, but it must not work" even if @Dan_P showed it does.
I can do the same with the seachem disks. Will you still say they don't work in this circumstance because seachem says it?

 

[Dan_P]

Thanks @MnFish1 I appreciate the effort you are doing on this.
(short version, none of these points would alter how we did the tests we've done.)

This is good background for those trying to think about how these disks and films work. We do find that you should leave the disks in the sample for longer than you think just to make sure you aren't fooling yourself. Coloring up is indeed much faster than coloring down. For this reason, thoroughly mixing Prime with the ammonia sample before adding the disks is of course necessary. I will usually check the disks after minutes, hours, day+ in a sample just to see if something shows up that's "different" and changes what I see ( it doesn't - results are stable).


"Prime® removes chlorine and chloramine almost instantly upon being added to water, and will immediately detoxify ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. "
Immediately = 1 hour I suppose

In all seriousness, I found that waiting 30 minutes after mixing was sufficient to avoid the initial unreliable response of the disks. Also just waiting a longer equilibrium time with disks in the sample worked too.



Interestingly, this is quite testable. You and Seneye suggest that if the device is in a sample with ammonia and Prime is added, then then seneye is moved to a (pH matched) sample that also has Prime and low/no ammonia, that the seneye will be unresponsive and not correctly record the new lower level of ammonia for a long time, perhaps 24 hours.

What do you think will happen if we actually do the test? I suppose it would be pointless to do from your perspective, if your answer would remain "I don't know why they say it doesn't work, but it must not work" even if @Dan_P showed it does.
I can do the same with the seachem disks. Will you still say they don't work in this circumstance because seachem says it?

This is why I said ”talking with tech support is useful to a point”. Seachem tech support does not seem to know much about their own product.

I thought Prime worked quickly, not within 24 hours. I never gave Prime 24 hours. I will give that a try.

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks @MnFish1 I appreciate the effort you are doing on this.
(short version, none of these points would alter how we did the tests we've done.)

This is good background for those trying to think about how these disks and films work. We do find that you should leave the disks in the sample for longer than you think just to make sure you aren't fooling yourself. Coloring up is indeed much faster than coloring down. For this reason, thoroughly mixing Prime with the ammonia sample before adding the disks is of course necessary. I will usually check the disks after minutes, hours, day+ in a sample just to see if something shows up that's "different" and changes what I see ( it doesn't - results are stable).


"Prime® removes chlorine and chloramine almost instantly upon being added to water, and will immediately detoxify ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. "
Immediately = 1 hour I suppose

In all seriousness, I found that waiting 30 minutes after mixing was sufficient to avoid the initial unreliable response of the disks. Also just waiting a longer equilibrium time with disks in the sample worked too.



Interestingly, this is quite testable. You and Seneye suggest that if the device is in a sample with ammonia and Prime is added, then then seneye is moved to a (pH matched) sample that also has Prime and low/no ammonia, that the seneye will be unresponsive and not correctly record the new lower level of ammonia for a long time, perhaps 24 hours.

What do you think will happen if we actually do the test? I suppose it would be pointless to do from your perspective, if your answer would remain "I don't know why they say it doesn't work, but it must not work" even if @Dan_P showed it does.
I can do the same with the seachem disks. Will you still say they don't work in this circumstance because seachem says it?

First - As I said at least 10 times - my first step would be to contact Seachem - explain your results - and ask them for an explanation - rather than me.

Second- I would call Seneye - and ask them - why they recommend not relying on results before 24 hours after adding Prime.

no one has 'shown anything'. Or disproven anything (including me) - I am just suggesting what the manufacturers of the products you are using for testing recommend. Why you don't want to follow those guidelines is unclear. So - yes - you're correct - If you just did some other experiment - to 'prove' that seneye is not affected by Prime - great - I would go by what the manufacturer said every time. (They are unlikely to undersell their product. I've already posted at least 2 instances where Seneye said back in the mid 2000's that Prime did not affect their monitor).

Either way - I would approach the companies with your results - and ask them why they said what they said. It didnt take days of work - it took a couple hours. Its far easier than doing a controlled experiment.

Ask them - which experiment should you replicate. etc etc. IDK - I dont know why they say what they say. I do know your current methods to not match theirs. Why? IDK.

Either way - Yeah - you're kind of right - unless you do some kind of in-vivo experiment - I will always believe (rightly so IMHO) that there is SOME flaw in your methodology - or misuse of the tests you're using. But - the first step I would take before posting a thread on an international website would be discussing the results with the company - I suggested that a week (or so) ago - I suggest it today

 

[MnFish1]

This is why I said ”talking with tech support is useful to a point”. Seachem tech support does not seem to know much about their own product.

I thought Prime worked quickly, not within 24 hours. I never gave Prime 24 hours. I will give that a try.

You misread - or perhaps I mistyped. I never said that Prime took 24 hours to work. In fact I said the opposite. Detoxification is close to immediate (thats why you can add prime to water and fill up the tank at the same time - with freshwater). I said - the testing can lag.

 

[MnFish1]

You misread - or perhaps I mistyped. I never said that Prime took 24 hours to work. In fact I said the opposite. Detoxification is close to immediate (thats why you can add prime to water and fill up the tank at the same time - with freshwater). I said - the testing can lag.

I.e. - I said - if you took a vial, with Saltwater. Added ammonia to 1PPM, , tested with the alert disk - it would take 24 hours to match the MAXIMUM effect - looking at the disk - nothing more nothing less. I think its time for you to stop trying to disprove things - just for the sake of disproving the - and work with the manufacturers you're trying to slam. And - BTW - I dont care if you slam them - or disagree, or disprove. I'm just saying these experiments ignore both companies saying you're misusing their testing equipment

 

[Dan_P]

Interestingly, this is quite testable. You and Seneye suggest that if the device is in a sample with ammonia and Prime is added, then then seneye is moved to a (pH matched) sample that also has Prime and low/no ammonia, that the seneye will be unresponsive and not correctly record the new lower level of ammonia for a long time, perhaps 24 hours.

Oops! Seneye made a mistake. Prime does not cause their ammonia sensing film to become uncalibrated.

Funny that this tech support person was willing to supply a verdict while the one I talked with couldn’t comment because the Prime ingredients are unknown. MMM, which one should we believe?

 

[Dan_P]

You misread - or perhaps I mistyped. I never said that Prime took 24 hours to work. In fact I said the opposite. Detoxification is close to immediate (thats why you can add prime to water and fill up the tank at the same time - with freshwater). I said - the testing can lag.

Misread.

The testing does not lag. That is a misconception. The Seneye film responds within minutes to rapid increases or decreases in free ammonia. Seachem Alert badges seem to be equilibrated within 30 minutes. I only say “seem“ because I am not yet sure it is not less than 30 minutes.

Since Seachem tech support did not share their research results with you or pretty much no one else, the notion that detoxification is immediate is heresay, just something someone said without proving it, right?

 

[Malcontent]

Seachem is never going to admit their products don't work. Any dialogue with them is a waste of time.

 

[Dan_P]

1. Seneye says - Don't rely on Seneye measurements after dosing Prime for 24 hours. If you want to find out 'why' - you can ask them. But - if they say it - I'm going to tend to believe it.

Seneye tech support does not seem to know its own product. Prime does not alter the calibration of their sensing films. Said another way Prime does not interfere with measuring the expected amount of free ammonia.

By the way, how do we know you weren’t talking with a trainee?

 

[Dan_P]

Seachem is never going to admit their products don't work. Any dialogue with them is a waste of time.

Hey it works. They have studies that prove it does but no one is permitted to see them.

 

[taricha]

So - yes - you're correct - If you just did some other experiment - to 'prove' that seneye is not affected by Prime - great - I would go by what the manufacturer said every time.

Once I had a professor for a modern physics class who would assign problems out of a textbook where the answers were in the back. In this particular textbook probably 1 out of 10 answers in the back of the book were intentionally wrong. He would always assign a few of those just to see who would try to work backwards from the wrong answer in the back, and who would stick with their actual work.
I would find it maddening to conclude as you do that independent verification attempts must be discarded if they disagree with the answers handed out by a manufacturer.

anyway, here's three seachem disks in 4x dose of Prime with 2ppm ammonia, then one got moved down to 1ppm ammonia with 4 x prime, and one moved to a zero ammonia sample also with 4x prime. The third stayed in the 2ppm ammonia with 4x prime. (all were pH 8.1)

Do they take some time to fully reach equilibrium going down from high concentration? yep. But even with large doses of Prime they clearly respond to the removal of ammonia if it's not there anymore, and after an hour or two the reading is stable. Substantial decreases in ammonia would be obvious.

 

[Dan_P]

I guess that is the end of the discussion.

If someone’s position is rigidly defended by faith in unsubstantiated vendor claims, there is near absolute immunity against scientific data and reason to alter that position.