Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

[MnFish1]

Another typo? Harmless ammonium, like ammonium does not equilibrate to a mixture of NH3 and NH4+. I don’t think I am going to learn much from these folks.

LOL its common knowledge - that if you live in an area with Chloramines - that you cannot just add thiosulfate. Maybe you have dealt mostly with saltwater - and have forgotten that lots of people use tap water for freshwater tanks. And that many communities use Chloramine. If products like prime 'didn't work' in vivo, how would anyone do a large water change?

PS - Obviously - that website (as already stated) - was designed not as a chemistry lesson - but rather guidance for the general public how to treat their water. Point being - they are a water treatment facility.

 

[Rick Mathew]

I have said you might be right - what about that do you not get? BTW - if you think that a product thats been being sold for decades was just 'thrown together' with no experiments. Then a supposed test kit was designed - with specific instructions that claim to test things a certain way - but the company is just lying, and they have done no experiments to 'prove it', I think thats not logical. Then another company that makes a device which you imply is the gold standard for ammonia measurement - claims it can be interfered with by Prime, you ignore that, etc etc etc.

I appreciate @taricha's efforts to do some of the things I've suggested. Part of 'science' is responding to comments. I appreciate the discussion. Its interesting.

That is an interesting statement you make about "a company introducing a product without supportive experiments" would not be logical. The Federal Trade Commission handles many many cases where manufactures and service providers make "claims or promises" that are not backed up by good science. The health supplement industry is one that has been and still is as far as I know notorious for for this problem...So much so federal regulation were necessary to protect the consumer. Therefore it would seem to me to be more logical that they may have conducted experiments that only gave "appearance" of performance but did not apply the necessary rigor to validate it...Part of science is also being skeptical...Don't trust even your own results without multiple levels of validation...Just my 2 cents

Rick

 

[MnFish1]

That is an interesting statement you make about "a company introducing a product without supportive experiments" would not be logical. The Federal Trade Commission handles many many cases where manufactures and service providers make "claims or promises" that are not backed up by good science. The health supplement industry is one that has been and still is as far as I know notorious for for this problem...So much so federal regulation were necessary to protect the consumer. Therefore it would seem to me to be more logical that they may have conducted experiments that only gave "appearance" of performance but did not apply the necessary rigor to validate it...Part of science is also being skeptical...Don't trust even your own results without multiple levels of validation...Just my 2 cents

Rick

I couldn't agree more. And I agree totally about 'supplements'. The problem here - IMHO - is that it is very clear that SOMEHOW, ammonia is 'detoxified' in areas with chloramine in the water by these products. Its no conjecture, or guessing, or assuming. Its a fact. Because - as I'm sure many people who either buffer their pH to higher levels (like African cichlid tanks, for example) or have a naturally high pH. Fish death occurs with thiosulfate alone. So - SOMETHING must be detoxifying free ammonia - since in the same conditions, fish do fine with Prime (and other brands that claim to do the same thing).

Some here have conjectured that Prime contains only 1 ingredient. There is no proof for that.

Lastly - Concerning 'logic' - Why would a company put out a product designed to 'detoxify free ammonia', and then put out a test designed to MEASURE free ammonia - IF it doesnt work. They would have been better just not releasing the free ammonia test kits, right? Thats what I meant by not logical.

 

[MnFish1]

That is an interesting statement you make about "a company introducing a product without supportive experiments" would not be logical. The Federal Trade Commission handles many many cases where manufactures and service providers make "claims or promises" that are not backed up by good science.

PS - You're paraphrasing my paragraph a little too much. Or maybe I wasn't clear. We've all seen informercials for product XXX that supposedly grows hair , or whatever. The seem to be around for a couple months - and then go away - because people have found 'they do not work'. Prime, etc have been around for decades - if they did not detoxify ammonia, they would not be IMO. BTW - I also think there is a difference between selling a product that is 'harmless' (i.e. not hurting anyone) - as compared to selling a product that can result in animal death. IMHO - if that were the case - activists would be all over it. Maybe I'll ask the Berkley water treatment facility when I call them

 

[MnFish1]

Maybe an east-coast version will shed light on what water treatment facilities recommend:

"Note with regard to making sure your water is safe for fish:
It is important to remember that a dechlorinating agent containing Sodium Thiosulfate will only neutralize the chlorine portion of the chloramines, not the ammonia. Additional steps must be taken to remove ammonia. Natural zeolite products can be used with carbon filters to remove the ammonia. There are also commercial products available containing dechloraminating agents that remove the chlorine and detoxify the ammonia so that it can be removed by the biological filter.
Ammonia removal is particularly important in water with a high pH level. As the pH increases the un-ionized ammonia (toxic form) also increases. Commercial products, biological filters, zeolites, and pH control methods may be effective in reducing the toxicity of ammonia.
Consult your local pet store professional for the test kit and treatment method which is best for you. Most pet stores in the region should be aware of this as many of the surrounding communities already use chloraminated MWRA water."

https://www.mwra.com/01news/2016/waterqa/chloramines-qa.pdf

 

[MnFish1]

Here is some more 'light reading'. At least proves (as compared to some comments here) - that none of these products work. https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/ca/f8/8b/fade8702d93a49/US5082573.pdf

EDIT - THIS SHOULD READ - AT LEAST PROVES AS COMPARED TO SOME COMMENTS HERE - THAT ITS POSSIBLE FOR THESE PRODUCTS TO WORK.

 

[Dan_P]

In fact - I have a simple question - very simple. If you take water from a system that contains chloramines. You add Thiosulfate, who here would be comfortable adding fish to that water?

If you're not comfortable, what would you do? Lots of people add Prime etc. The reason - if they do not, they have dead fish.

From Duke.edu: "Chloramine can be safely neutralized through such products as Amquel, which neutralize both the ammonia and chlorine portions of the chloramine molecules. The neutralized ammonia will still be converted to nitrates via a biological filter."

I posted the patent for ClorAm-X, another popular water treatment, which has a good collection of performance data obtained with a ion selective electrode. The thinking is that if our ammonia sensing films can reproduce the patent observations, that is further evidence of their reliability as free ammonia senors. We can then perform experiments with Prime that will put any remaining doubt to rest. There is also a possibility that data shows that the films are unreliable or their was some other experimental error and then we look up recipes for crow and request a retraction. It will take 4-6 weeks to complete the study. @taricha has already put in a bunch of lab time with this chemical but there are no sneak peeks at the data. If there is lab time and budget, other products will be examined, assuming we aren’t too busy eating crow.

 

[MnFish1]

I posted the patent for ClorAm-X, another popular water treatment, which has a good collection of performance data obtained with a ion selective electrode. The thinking is that if our ammonia sensing films can reproduce the patent observations, that is further evidence of their reliability as free ammonia senors. We can then perform experiments with Prime that will put any remaining doubt to rest. There is also a possibility that data shows that the films are unreliable or their was some other experimental error and then we look up recipes for crow and request a retraction. It will take 4-6 weeks to complete the study. @taricha has already put in a bunch of lab time with this chemical but there are no sneak peeks at the data. If there is lab time and budget, other products will be examined, assuming we aren’t too busy eating crow.

I just want the answer to the question - why do people that live in water with chloramine kill fish with a dechlorinator - and save them with Prime? Or - do you think thats not a fact? Because - if Prime prevents fish death in water with chloramines, in vivo - by definition it 'detoxifies ammonia'?

 

[Dan_P]

Here is some more 'light reading'. At least proves (as compared to some comments here) - that none of these products work. https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/ca/f8/8b/fade8702d93a49/US5082573.pdf

Thanks for the read. Do you know if there is a product on the market that uses organic amines?

 

[Dan_P]

I just want the answer to the question - why do people that live in water with chloramine kill fish with a dechlorinator - and save them with Prime? Or - do you think thats not a fact? Because - if Prime prevents fish death in water with chloramines, in vivo - by definition it 'detoxifies ammonia'?

Sorry, anecdotal evidence. People also claim seeing Bigfoot.

 

[Rick Mathew]

Sorry, anecdotal evidence. People also claim seeing Bigfoot.

P.S. ....Be careful Dissing Bigfoot...You might be next

 

[Dan_P]

P.S. ....Be careful Dissing Bigfoot...You might be next

Thanks for the heads up . You are pal!

 

[Rick Mathew]

Thanks for the heads up . You are pal!

My pleasure...

 

[Rick Mathew]

PS - You're paraphrasing my paragraph a little too much. Or maybe I wasn't clear. We've all seen informercials for product XXX that supposedly grows hair , or whatever. The seem to be around for a couple months - and then go away - because people have found 'they do not work'. Prime, etc have been around for decades - if they did not detoxify ammonia, they would not be IMO. BTW - I also think there is a difference between selling a product that is 'harmless' (i.e. not hurting anyone) - as compared to selling a product that can result in animal death. IMHO - if that were the case - activists would be all over it. Maybe I'll ask the Berkley water treatment facility when I call them

They actually treat the water in Berkley...I would never have guessed that ...Learn something new every day.

 

[Malcontent]

Thanks for the read. Do you know if there is a product on the market that uses organic amines?

AmmoLock, I think.

 

[Malcontent]

I just want the answer to the question - why do people that live in water with chloramine kill fish with a dechlorinator - and save them with Prime? Or - do you think thats not a fact? Because - if Prime prevents fish death in water with chloramines, in vivo - by definition it 'detoxifies ammonia'?

I have chloramines and I use zeolite to remove ammonia after dechlorinating although lately I've been using the waste product from my RO filter (0.03 mg/L total NH3-N).

At a pH of ~8.4 (I haven't measured tap water pH recently) ammonia levels (0.35 NH3-N) would only be dangerous (>0.02 mg/L free ammonia) if I exceeded a 50% water change.

 

[taricha]

@taricha EDIT - here is a quote from (I believe a professor at the Technical University of Denmark: "Beware that thiosulfate does disturb several common analytical methods used to determine both nitrate and ammonia. Check with your laboratory's chemist."

yep!
check my posts on the topic of interference with chemical kits (not nh3 films) by thiosulfate and Prime in post 13 here, post 113 here, and post 165 here.

I just want the answer to the question - why do people that live in water with chloramine kill fish with a dechlorinator - and save them with Prime? Or - do you think thats not a fact?

if you mean freshwater, It sure seems like Prime drops the pH of tap water significantly compared to thiosulfate, that alone is enough to "detoxify" ammonia, and offer protection from NH3.

For saltwater, I make that exact case (that this may not be a fact) here,

Been thinking about the tap water line of argument.


We need to seriously consider the possibility that the level of ammonia that Prime is meant to "detoxify" is only that contained in tap water from chloramine. And it's possible that this level is not actually enough to cause toxic effects that we'd see.

My tap water only has like ~0.5ppm ammonia from chloramine. The max allowed chloramine is 4ppm which gives you 1.09ppm total ammonia nitrogen. At pH of 8.1, that's only 0.075ppm NH3-N, and even at pH 8.4 it's 0.14ppm NH3-N.

"This is supported a recent analysis by Ip et al. (2001) and Randall & Tsui (2002) of the data presented by USEPA (1984, 1989) that indicated that the mean acute toxicity value for 32 freshwater species was c. 2.3 mg/ NH3–N/L compared with 1.5 mg/L NH3–N for 17 seawater species. For the five most sensitive species the values were 0.79 mg/L NH3–N and 0.68 mg/L NH3–N for fresh water and sea water respectively."
Ammonia in estuaries and effects on fish

Since any tank with light or a biofilter can knock these (tap water) levels of ammonia out in a very short time - well under a day, I think the acute toxicity levels quoted above are a better indicator for expectations of fish mortality.
So the max chloramine ammonia allowable from tap water is only ~1/5 of the acute toxic NH3-N concentration of the "sensitive" group of fish. Is anyone in the reef hobby putting something more sensitive than that in a new tank cycling from tap water?

My point is, "detoxifying" ammonia may be as moot as detoxifying Nitrate. It probably wasn't going to be (noticeably) toxic anyway.

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks for the read. Do you know if there is a product on the market that uses organic amines?

Sorry there was a typo in that post - I corrected it - it should have said "this patent shows, that despite some comments here that these products "CAN WORK"

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks for the read. Do you know if there is a product on the market that uses organic amines?

AFAIK no one knows that ingredients of most of these products.

 

[MnFish1]

if you mean freshwater, It sure seems like Prime drops the pH of tap water significantly compared to thiosulfate, that alone is enough to "detoxify" ammonia, and offer protection from NH3.

For saltwater, I make that exact case (that this may not be a fact) here,

I dont know if you missed what I said. I pointed out - that the pH of tap water of many locations is higher even than in saltwater tanks - AND - in African cichlid tanks - above 8. No one has answered the question about whether it makes sense to add an ammonia detoxifier - if there are chloramines in the water. BTW - If water treatment centers across the country recommend it - I don't see how there any answer but 1 to this question