Dosing For Mostly Fish Only

[cccharliecc]

Would you dose for a mostly fish only tank? It may have some nems and a couple soft corals, thats about it.

If so, what should I dose?
Should I dose at least to maintain pH? What do you dose for that kalk or alk?
I have 2 BRS dosers and an Apex I can setup for dosing.

Thank you!

 

[Rakie]

For me, I would say dosing basic Alk, Cal, and Mag is all you really need for things like nems and zoas. I would also say to look into some photosynthetic gorgonians, a lot of them are pretty great looking. For nems you might want to offer more light than for things like zoas. Eventually you'll probably want to put a few corals in there that are both nice looking and low maintenance like Favia, or encrusting / plating montipora (they can create shadow and beautiful ledges/caves with their structure).

So keep in mind almost nobody with a fish only take truly keeps it FO. I like to jokingly call it Fish Only With Live Coral (FOWLC).

Here's where I'm super out of my element -- But from what I've read (and can no longer source) Alk swings can also have an effect on fish -- This could be misinformation that I believe, so take it with a grain of salt. But to me, whether you're keeping fish, corals, growing a vivarium, or tomato plants -- Stability is always key. Everything appreciates stability.

So some super basic Alk/Cal/Mag like the stuff from BRS, as well as some good water changes with something basic like Instant Ocean and you should be golden. Just make sure the lights you use can keep corals alive. You don't need to go out and buy a half dozen radions, but you can't go to home depot and buy some curly que CFL bulbs either. At the least, you may want a couple AI Hydra 52's (Used, non HD can be found at GREAT prices) or maybe some AI Primes.

pH will probably be stabilized by

A) A good Protein Skimmer -- People either forget, or never realize a good skimmer will increase pH and keep things nice and stable. I generally think this action alone is a good reason to use a Protein skimmer, even if you don't want one, it does a job beyond pulling junk out of the water

B) Chaeto -- If you're gonna have big predatory fish, with big predatory appetites, they're gonna lay giant predatory poops. Because of this, in your sump, i would actually advise Chaeto with a good lighting source (A kessil isn't necessary, with high enough nutrients you will get a TON of growth just from the nutrients and lower light). On the other hand, a very strong light for Chaeto will make the pH more stable. Turning the Chaeto light on at night will help keep pH steady over the whole day.

Chaeto is best run as a filter sock, with a small powerhead making sure it's keeping everything nice and mixed up. I think with the type of fish you keep in a FOWLC, your nutrients are going to creep up to levels that even make me wince, and I love nutrients.

This is bits and pieces of info more than what you asked for, but I hope it helps! Randy will be significantly more knowledgeable than I in this convo.

 

[cccharliecc]

Thank you very much for all the information!
I have kept SPS tanks in the past, I know exactly what you mean about starting as a fish only and then the next thing you know there’s a ton of coral in there.
The only thing this time is my son and daughter are picking a lot of fish and most of them are not reef safe.

I will try some LPS and of USPS rags eventually just to see if the fish we stock start to eat them.

I have three LED lights super reef octopus skimmer, it’s at 220 gallon tank and has pretty much all the best equipment....WAV’s, ATK, Apex, etc...

I just want to make sure I maintain pH and anything else necessary for the fish. I wanted to utilize the two dosers I have the best way possible.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I agree that for such a tank calcium and alkalinity are the things to focus on, and either a two part or limewater will be fine.

 

[cccharliecc]

OK, so here is what I have.
This should cover everything correct?
Do I need 3 dosers?
I never dosed before with any of my other tanks, it was a long time ago and I did everything manually

 

[Rakie]

Thank you very much for all the information!
I have kept SPS tanks in the past, I know exactly what you mean about starting as a fish only and then the next thing you know there’s a ton of coral in there.
The only thing this time is my son and daughter are picking a lot of fish and most of them are not reef safe.

I will try some LPS and of USPS rags eventually just to see if the fish we stock start to eat them.

I have three LED lights super reef octopus skimmer, it’s at 220 gallon tank and has pretty much all the best equipment....WAV’s, ATK, Apex, etc...

I just want to make sure I maintain pH and anything else necessary for the fish. I wanted to utilize the two dosers I have the best way possible.

Sounds great! Aside from butterfly's and angels, and filefish -- As you know, most fish that aren't 'reef safe' typically mean they eat inverts. Yellow corris wrasse are often considered not reef safe, but they mostly are just the harbinger to snails and shrimp. So something not being reef safe is a bit of a misnomer, with a few notable exceptions.

I'll also say, there's a lot of really cheap corals that aren't half bad by any means. A lot of zoas come to mind, you can get some really nice frags for $20 a pop and have an outstandingly colorful tank, as they devour every inch of available rock haha.

As for what you have there: I don't think you really need to worry too much about dosing heavily. All you do is get your parameters to where you want, don't dose for a day and test 24 hours later, see how much it dropped, and use a calculator for dosage. The only difference from hand dosing is your use your doser to break the dose down to 12+ times in 24 hours to keep things as stable as possible.

You can setup kalk as a drip but honestly don't need it. Once in awhile you'll need to dose some Magnesium as well, but you should use very, very little MAG.

 

[MaiReef]

Personally, I would just do Kalk in that setup. It will work fine in an ATO application.

 

[cccharliecc]

What classifies inverts? Do nems fall into that category?

If I could just dose 1 or 2 things that would be awesome for now...the simpler the better to start.

It will really be fish only for a while, at least 6+ months until things stabilize and mature. With nems...

 

[Rakie]

What classifies inverts? Do nems fall into that category?

If I could just dose 1 or 2 things that would be awesome for now...the simpler the better to start.

It will really be fish only for a while, at least 6+ months until things stabilize and mature. With nems...

Technically, nems are inverts sure, but typically we mean snails, shrimp, crabs, worms. Some fish will eat nems, some shrimp will eat nems -- Some shrimp are purchased specifically to eat nems like aptasia, and they will then eat other nems/corals too.

But when we talk about fish being not reef safe, 9/10 times we mean they will eat up all your snails, shrimp, crabs. But angelfish will eat SPS and some soft corals, many types of butterfly fish are strictly coral-eaters, some filefish will decimate SPS, there's little yellow gobies that perch in SPS and kill parts of it they like to perch on, etc etc etc.

Research everything before you buy it to be safe.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

What classifies inverts? Do nems fall into that category?

If I could just dose 1 or 2 things that would be awesome for now...the simpler the better to start.

It will really be fish only for a while, at least 6+ months until things stabilize and mature. With nems...

Anemones can be as challenging to keep as SPS corals, depending on the species, but they do not consume cal/alk/mag, so they do not increase that demand.

In your situation, either the limewater/kalkasser alone of the two part made from those other two ingredients you have will work fine.

 

[Rakie]

Personally, I would just do Kalk in that setup. It will work fine in an ATO application.

I have to say I used Kalk for my first year. I thought it was fine, and relatively stable. After switching up to a doser with real 3-part, the difference in growth and coral health was staggering. In less than a few weeks I realized I wasted an entire year of potential time.

That said, my tank is and was full SPS, so it will matter more for someone like me, than someone who might add some coral someday.

 

[cccharliecc]

Technically, nems are inverts sure, but typically we mean snails, shrimp, crabs, worms. Some fish will eat nems, some shrimp will eat nems -- Some shrimp are purchased specifically to eat nems like aptasia, and they will then eat other nems/corals too.

But when we talk about fish being not reef safe, 9/10 times we mean they will eat up all your snails, shrimp, crabs. But angelfish will eat SPS and some soft corals, many types of butterfly fish are strictly coral-eaters, some filefish will decimate SPS, there's little yellow gobies that perch in SPS and kill parts of it they like to perch on, etc etc etc.

Research everything before you buy it to be safe.

Excellent info...thank you!!!

 

[cccharliecc]

Anemones can be as challenging to keep as SPS corals, depending on the species, but they do not consume cal/alk/mag, so they do not increase that demand.

In your situation, either the limewater/kalkasser alone of the two part made from those other two ingredients you have will work fine.

So I could do the kalk in one container/doser and then mix the soda ash+calcium chloride in another container/doser? 2 dosers in total?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

So I could do the kalk in one container/doser and then mix the soda ash+calcium chloride in another container/doser? 2 dosers in total?

No.

Put limewater in one and use nothing else.

or (not "and")

Put the sodium carbonate in one and the calcium chloride in the other and use 2. I designed a DIY two part recipe from them, and the BRS version of that is here:

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/instructions/article/Instructions-for-Bulk-Packaged-Materials

 

[cccharliecc]

Great, thank you!
So I know how reefing goes....its an addiction....I've had tanks on and off since I was 16....it never stops.
I just forget a lot of things and the hobby changes so quickly during my off periods, which could be 5 years sometimes.
With that said....i totally know down the road I will have corals.....how can you not really...right? I mean c'mon!

So I have 2 Dosers now....Is it safe to say I will need at least 2 more....1 for Mg and 1 for Kalk?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Great, thank you!
So I know how reefing goes....its an addiction....I've had tanks on and off since I was 16....it never stops.
I just forget a lot of things and the hobby changes so quickly during my off periods, which could be 5 years sometimes.
With that said....i totally know down the road I will have corals.....how can you not really...right? I mean c'mon!

So I have 2 Dosers now....Is it safe to say I will need at least 2 more....1 for Mg and 1 for Kalk?

For this tank? 2 dosers is one more than you need (using limewater) or all you need (dosing a two part). The magnesium depletion (if any,) will be very slow and does not need a doser. I would not advise using both limewater and a two part on a fish only.

For a full reef, you could stay with just the two part.

 

[cccharliecc]

Ok, thanks!
I was watching some vids on BRS tv....One said Kalkwasser takes care of Ca, Alk, and ph.
Why wouldn't we dose just kalk all the time.....seems easier.
or does it not supply a larger SPS tank with more demand enough of the essentials it needs?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Ok, thanks!
I was watching some vids on BRS tv....One said Kalkwasser takes care of Ca, Alk, and ph.
Why wouldn't we dose just kalk all the time.....seems easier.
or does it not supply a larger SPS tank with more demand enough of the essentials it needs?

I did. I used it alone for 20 years on my tank as the source of calcium and alkalinity (that's all it adds). It's a great method, IMO, but no method is perfect.

It is limited in the amount that can be added each day due to evaporation limits, and if you have a lot of SPS, it may be inadequate to meet the demand.

It also allows calcium to very slowly rise relative to alkalinity for chemistry reasons we can get into, but relate to magnesium incorporation into depositing calcium carbonate int eh tank.

 

[cccharliecc]

Roger that!
I am going to start off with Kalk dosing once things start moving along with the fish only for a while...testing often of course.
Then as I add LPS or SPS, I will probably move to the Ca and Alk dosing and just use Kalk maybe in ATO or manually....or with another doser on a very scaled back schedule.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Roger that!
I am going to start off with Kalk dosing once things start moving along with the fish only for a while...testing often of course.
Then as I add LPS or SPS, I will probably move to the Ca and Alk dosing and just use Kalk maybe in ATO or manually....or with another doser on a very scaled back schedule.

FWIW, I compare various methods here:

The Many Methods for Supplementing Calcium and Alkalinity - REEFEDITION
https://www.reef2reef.com/blog/the-many-methods-for-supplementing-calcium-and-alkalinity