Dosing Kalk methods??

[m.kristoff]

This is the first issue. You are breaking down aerobicly only. Everything. That means you hare going to get pH depression. This has been around for a very long time.


LOL yes it ihas been around for a long time and it's proven track record is for dealing with alk. It is relatively recently that it has been used for pH control.



Kalk isn't the only factor that I have seen people that buy into this method. There is many more things that they will try. Much of it centers around REALLY understanding the acid base chemistry and where you are getting each from in the tank.

This tank is 3 months old. If it is your first or second tank (no idea of your time in hobby) then you need to take a more DIY approach and figure things out yourself. Problem solving is the first thing that you need to get under your belt before you can really start to experiment.


Here is the rub, you are not asking for information, you are stating your opinion. Most people will not care unless there are pics of acro growing wildly accompaning that opinion. Best to ask for information and take what you can get than to try and argue opinion with other people.

You have literally shot down every person that is trying to provide information. At this point I think that you should reconsider asking for outside help on what is essentially your opinion about how things work.

This hobby is VERY frustrating for those that think that you can just slam something together and watch a thousand YouTube videos and read a billion forum posts. They very rarely find success. Much of what is know or has been done is done by people that tinker. The sad/hilarious part is that other people come along and twist what they did for their own ends. Very rarely this MIGHT produce something new, odds are that it won't. Even it does it is usually for niche stuff. I have done something like this and got ripped apart for it. You have to except this reality or go mad trying to do everything different without understanding what the "rules" are. Trust me they are obtuse.

Had to take a minute to digest your reply. Your post came across displaying your superiority. This hobby has plenty of people like that. I don't get offend, but I will reply

I have been in the hobby for 26 years. My biggest knock is that since I was active-duty Army, I was never able to keep a tank long term. so the ability to experiment or as you say DIY was limited. Sure I think there is a lot left to learn. Hence the reason for my post. if you read the title "Dosing Kalk methods??" It tuned it to a deeper conversation. Any points that were made, I provided more detail about my setup to present a clear picture of facts to look into this deeper.

I agree my tank is new and more than likely the problem. But do you mind if I put out a post to determine if "maybe" my method is not the best or could be tweaked?

this is classic!
"Then find people that get elevated pH. Talk to them. You will have to work to find them and you will need to understand the "rules" when you talk to them. Otherwise they will blow you off, because they really don't want to deal with people that don't understand. Explaining things a thousand times to person that doesn't want to understand gets old."

This sounds like they/you may need a lesson in humility. The whole point of R2R is to learn and not be judge if you/they deem them not to know enough to share their knowledge.

"Then find people that get elevated pH. Talk to them." I have. Had great conversation. It is intriguing and deserves more conversations and "opinions"!

In closing. My tank is doing great. I have more than enough experience to understand what equipment works and have chosen well. I have the opportunity to let this tank run long term and am excited for what comes next.

So please, this is just a conversation. it is turning out to be a deeper conversation. For the record, I do believe that my tank is still too new. the only thing I can control is the chemistry going in the tank today and adjusting accordingly. I also like to get opinions on methods and decide for myself where I want to go.

The military in me would really like to tell you where you can take your 2500+ post. But I'll keep it simple. until you can share knowledge respectfully and without a superiority complex , stay the hell off of my post.

For the others involved with this, thanks for the conversation and help

 

[m.kristoff]

It's not really a debate. Adding kalk equals dosing alkalinity. There are also pH benefits to it.

Agreed

It's good that you checked alk with a Salifert kit. Are you dosing 2-part with the Alkatronic? You also mentioned a calcium reactor. Or are you only using kalk for Alk and Ca?

All I doe is a small amount of MAG and Kalk. I do not have a calcium reactor or use the alkatronic to dose anything

But I wouldn't go much higher alk than you are already running.

totally agree. my alk seems to be naturally high. My salt is 9 dkh and the Kalk is elevating it. but is it stable for the most part.

 

[m.kristoff]

Scenario 1:
- kalk dosing is less than tank evaporation
- Alk/Ca consumption matches kalk dosing
Results: great stability hitting target Alk/Ca/pH/salinity

this is what I am currently doing. I have hopes that my PH would elevate. I do think my alk is high but stable. I am considering cutting the Kalk to like 800ml per day to see how much the alk would drop. but my coral is looking pretty happy so..

Scenario 2:
- kalk dosing exceeds tank evaporation rate
- Alk/Ca consumption matches kalk dosing
Results: unstable salinity and possible flood from tank

this is kind of what ACI is doing. I don't want to exceed my evap rate. ACI explained to me how they are doing it. They have lot of people to watch their systems so that can prevent any flooding and have it dialed in. I am not comfortable with that for my setup. I can't speak for them, but this is how he explained it to me and i am sure there is more to it

 

[reef_ranch]

I'll chime in with my experience raising pH. My tank is 7 years old at this point. 400 g + total system. The display is in the house with fairly high CO2 levels (average over 600), the sump and 2 frag tanks are in a separate room with much lower CO2 levels (generally in the 400s). I have a high bioload which results in my pH i the display dropping to 7.8 or lower at night while the sump and frag tanks stay above 8.1 I've always used a calcium reactor and an Aklatronic to track my alk and I never had an issue keeping Alk at whatever level I chose.
This year I decided to try to raise my pH with kalk. I tried the ACI method but it didn't boost it enough. I then watched a few videos about dosing kalk slurry and read a few threads here (@RobB'z Reef has a ton of good info, check out his thread on his venturi injection device) and decided to give it a go.

I'm using a Icecap Kalk stirrer. I load it with as much powder as I can while keeping the stir bar moving (about 2 cups for the size unit I have) and using a dosing pump controlled by my Apex dose the slurry in the drain line of one of my frag tanks, an inch above where it dumps into the sump (so decently high flow) at 15ml per minute. (In my opinion, this method is not as good as RobB'z Reef's, but until I move things around, I can't fit in a big enough vessel to use his method and I want to try to make use of the IceCap stirrer since I just purchased it)

The Apex is programmed to turn on when the pH in the display drops to 8.19 and off when it reaches 8.25. With this method, my pH is rock solid in that range in the display, and about .25 higher in the sump and frag tanks. The alk however moves between 9.0 and 9.7 each day. (I've programmed by Calcium reactor to turn on when the alk drops to 8.9 to limit the swings, without it I think it would swing a full point). Alk is trending lower over time as more alk is taken up by the animals. So far, and its only been little more than a month, this method is working great.

You might wonder whether the alk swings will cause SPS to burn tips or otherwise react poorly. I'm happy to say that for me, so far, the answer is no. I have dozens of colonies and frags, including smooth skin, millies and tenuis and not one has reacted poorly, to the contrary, they have excellent polyp extension and are growing well.

My working hypothesis is that alk swings in a stable high pH environment are no big deal. More data from more people with confirm or reject this, but I'm sticking with it until it stops working for me.

Hope this helps.

 

[m.kristoff]

The Apex is programmed to turn on when the pH in the display drops to 8.19 and off when it reaches 8.25. With this method, my pH is rock solid in that range in the display

so you are using a apex rule based on PH. how often do you end up dosing over the course of the day?

I have seen a little bit about dosing slurry. Reefgeek is doing that as well.

I do think my alk is high but it has been in the 9's from day one. I have some pretty large colonies of euphyllia and Duncans. tank is still little to new for sps

 

[m.kristoff]

You might wonder whether the alk swings will cause SPS to burn tips or otherwise react poorly. I'm happy to say that for me, so far, the answer is no. I have dozens of colonies and frags, including smooth skin, millies and tenuis and not one has reacted poorly, to the contrary, they have excellent polyp extension and are growing well.

thats awesome

 

[RobB'z Reef]

I'll chime in with my experience raising pH. My tank is 7 years old at this point. 400 g + total system. The display is in the house with fairly high CO2 levels (average over 600), the sump and 2 frag tanks are in a separate room with much lower CO2 levels (generally in the 400s). I have a high bioload which results in my pH i the display dropping to 7.8 or lower at night while the sump and frag tanks stay above 8.1 I've always used a calcium reactor and an Aklatronic to track my alk and I never had an issue keeping Alk at whatever level I chose.
This year I decided to try to raise my pH with kalk. I tried the ACI method but it didn't boost it enough. I then watched a few videos about dosing kalk slurry and read a few threads here (@RobB'z Reef has a ton of good info, check out his thread on his venturi injection device) and decided to give it a go.

I'm using a Icecap Kalk stirrer. I load it with as much powder as I can while keeping the stir bar moving (about 2 cups for the size unit I have) and using a dosing pump controlled by my Apex dose the slurry in the drain line of one of my frag tanks, an inch above where it dumps into the sump (so decently high flow) at 15ml per minute. (In my opinion, this method is not as good as RobB'z Reef's, but until I move things around, I can't fit in a big enough vessel to use his method and I want to try to make use of the IceCap stirrer since I just purchased it)

The Apex is programmed to turn on when the pH in the display drops to 8.19 and off when it reaches 8.25. With this method, my pH is rock solid in that range in the display, and about .25 higher in the sump and frag tanks. The alk however moves between 9.0 and 9.7 each day. (I've programmed by Calcium reactor to turn on when the alk drops to 8.9 to limit the swings, without it I think it would swing a full point). Alk is trending lower over time as more alk is taken up by the animals. So far, and its only been little more than a month, this method is working great.

You might wonder whether the alk swings will cause SPS to burn tips or otherwise react poorly. I'm happy to say that for me, so far, the answer is no. I have dozens of colonies and frags, including smooth skin, millies and tenuis and not one has reacted poorly, to the contrary, they have excellent polyp extension and are growing well.

My working hypothesis is that alk swings in a stable high pH environment are no big deal. More data from more people with confirm or reject this, but I'm sticking with it until it stops working for me.

Hope this helps.

I'll add my two cents from my own experience and others here have touched on it. First address the white elephant in the room and that's ambient CO2 levels and equilibration between your tank water and the air around it. Fixing your pH alone by dosing only works at scale. That is too say your alk demand needs to be massive. All pH benefits from dosing hydroxides and things like sodium carbonates are temporary. Left alone it will drift down until it normalizes to the CO2 levels around the tank or continued dosing without a sufficient all demand to hit higher pH will just drive your dKH to dangerously high levels or invoke abiotic precipitation. A combination of the two through various means can get you what you're after. There are many ways to deal with CO2 and you have to evaluate them for your situation. Same goes for pH boosting additives. Usually comes down to cost, time, ease of maintenance or even constraints due to setup (apartments vs home, a picky spouse regarding asthetics) the list goes on.

 

[reef_ranch]

I'll add my two cents from my own experience and others here have touched on it. First address the white elephant in the room and that's ambient CO2 levels and equilibration between your tank water and the air around it. Fixing your pH alone by dosing only works at scale. That is too say your alk demand needs to be massive. All pH benefits from dosing hydroxides and things like sodium carbonates are temporary. Left alone it will drift down until it normalizes to the CO2 levels around the tank or continued dosing without a sufficient all demand to hit higher pH will just drive your dKH to dangerously high levels or invoke abiotic precipitation. A combination of the two through various means can get you what you're after. There are many ways to deal with CO2 and you have to evaluate them for your situation. Same goes for pH boosting additives. Usually comes down to cost, time, ease of maintenance or even constraints due to setup (apartments vs home, a picky spouse regarding asthetics) the list goes on.

I know I need an ERV. I've tried some ventilation DYI fixes, but still cant get the CO2 down. Time to get a bid...

 

[reef_ranch]

so you are using a apex rule based on PH. how often do you end up dosing over the course of the day?

I have seen a little bit about dosing slurry. Reefgeek is doing that as well.

I do think my alk is high but it has been in the 9's from day one. I have some pretty large colonies of euphyllia and Duncans. tank is still little to new for sps

Well, I just checked and yesterday between 7pm and 8am today it went on 21 times!! lol I'd have to calculate how many mls of slurry that is. Between 8 am and 7 pm yesterday it went on 1 time.

 

[RobB'z Reef]

I know I need an ERV. I've tried some ventilation DYI fixes, but still cant get the CO2 down. Time to get a bid...

They don't give them away that's for sure. I got one for $3,300 and that was just for the one room in my basement. So until such time as I can stomach that investment (not there yet) I'll use scrubbing (and scrub outside air, not inside air) to offset the higher CO2 levels that I have indoors (newer tighter home). I use the big blues from BRS, don't use scrawny scrubbers with small hoses and containers as you do not want to restrict air draw for your skimmer. If you run a line for outside air, run a big one for larger skimmers (I run a 3/4" pvc pipe outside). I do not recirc at this time tho I will be trying that out soon as i get around to banging out a lid on my printer for my skimmer.

 

[m.kristoff]

I'll add my two cents from my own experience and others here have touched on it. First address the white elephant in the room and that's ambient CO2 levels and equilibration between your tank water and the air around it. Fixing your pH alone by dosing only works at scale. That is too say your alk demand needs to be massive. All pH benefits from dosing hydroxides and things like sodium carbonates are temporary. Left alone it will drift down until it normalizes to the CO2 levels around the tank or continued dosing without a sufficient all demand to hit higher pH will just drive your dKH to dangerously high levels or invoke abiotic precipitation. A combination of the two through various means can get you what you're after. There are many ways to deal with CO2 and you have to evaluate them for your situation. Same goes for pH boosting additives. Usually comes down to cost, time, ease of maintenance or even constraints due to setup (apartments vs home, a picky spouse regarding asthetics) the list goes on.

thanks for your input. I get it! I have since went checked CO2 levels near the tank. it is 532. granted this this meter is only giving an "Idea" of measurement and not a lab grade reading. I also realized that I didn't mention that my tank is in the basement so there will always be a struggle to maintain PH. I did install a vent fan above the tank so maybe turning that on will help move some air around it.

 

[m.kristoff]

They don't give them away that's for sure. I got one for $3,300 and that was just for the one room in my basement. So until such time as I can stomach that investment (not there yet) I'll use scrubbing (and scrub outside air, not inside air) to offset the higher CO2 levels that I have indoors (newer tighter home). I use the big blues from BRS, don't use scrawny scrubbers with small hoses and containers as you do not want to restrict air draw for your skimmer. If you run a line for outside air, run a big one for larger skimmers (I run a 3/4" pvc pipe outside). I do not recirc at this time tho I will be trying that out soon as i get around to banging out a lid on my printer for my skimmer.

My next move to run a line for outside air. I have external skimmer that draws a ton of air

 

[reef_ranch]

They don't give them away that's for sure. I got one for $3,300 and that was just for the one room in my basement. So until such time as I can stomach that investment (not there yet) I'll use scrubbing (and scrub outside air, not inside air) to offset the higher CO2 levels that I have indoors (newer tighter home). I use the big blues from BRS, don't use scrawny scrubbers with small hoses and containers as you do not want to restrict air draw for your skimmer. If you run a line for outside air, run a big one for larger skimmers (I run a 3/4" pvc pipe outside). I do not recirc at this time tho I will be trying that out soon as i get around to banging out a lid on my printer for my skimmer.

My problem is the sump room already has low CO2. A scrubber won't help. I'm pumping high pH water from the sump into the display where the pH immediately drops .25! I don't have a skimmer or other method to release CO2 from the display tank in the house. My only options are slurry and ERV.

 

[m.kristoff]

My problem is the sump room already has low CO2. A scrubber won't help. I'm pumping high pH water from the sump into the display where the pH immediately drops .25! I don't have a skimmer or other method to release CO2 from the display tank in the house. My only options are slurry and ERV.

I'm lucky with my sump room. CO2 is in the 400's

 

[reef_ranch]

I'm lucky with my sump room. CO2 is in the 400's

I am as well. I'm unlucky that the display room is 600+

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I agree that the next step is an easy one and should be done before taking any big actions: the aeration test with indoor and outside air. It clearly identifies any of several issues, including lack of sufficient aeration, calibration issues, and elevated indoor CO2 levels.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

pH and the Reef Aquarium - REEFEDITION

by Randy Holmes-Farley For many aquarists, pH is not something that they have much experience with aside from their aquarium. For many, pH is almost a black box measurement: something to be considered, but whose physical meaning makes little sense to them. This article will Read more here...

www.reefedition.com

The Aeration Test

Some of the possible causes of low pH listed above require an effort to diagnose. Problems 3 and 4 are quite common, and here is a way to distinguish them. Remove a cup of tank water and measure its pH. Then aerate it for an hour with an airstone using outside air. Its pH should rise if it is unusually low for the measured alkalinity (Figure 2). Then repeat the same experiment on a new cup of water using inside air. If its pH also rises, then the aquarium’s pH will rise simply with more aeration because it is only the aquarium that contains excess carbon dioxide. If the pH does not rise in the cup (or rises very little) when aerating with indoor air, then that air likely contains excess CO2, and more aeration with that same air will not solve the low pH problem (although aeration with fresher air should). Be careful implementing this test if the outside aeration test results in a large temperature change (more than 5°C or 10°F), because such changes alone impact pH measurements.

 

[HuduVudu]

I know I need an ERV. I've tried some ventilation DYI fixes, but still cant get the CO2 down. Time to get a bid...

These things are the bomb. Make sure you are bit over on what you buy. I made the mistake of going under and was not able to get seriously low numbers.

Now I keep the windows open during the day. I have a CO2 meter on my desk and watch the levels. See <400 to 520. Close the windows at night and I see near 1100. If I wasn't in this apartment an ERV would be my choice. I had one on my house and they are 100% worth it. Hilariously for me the benefits for me far outweigh any benefits that I see from my tank.

 

[HuduVudu]

They don't give them away that's for sure. I got one for $3,300 and that was just for the one room in my basement. So until such time as I can stomach that investment (not there yet) I'll use scrubbing (and scrub outside air, not inside air) to offset the higher CO2 levels that I have indoors (newer tighter home). I use the big blues from BRS, don't use scrawny scrubbers with small hoses and containers as you do not want to restrict air draw for your skimmer. If you run a line for outside air, run a big one for larger skimmers (I run a 3/4" pvc pipe outside). I do not recirc at this time tho I will be trying that out soon as i get around to banging out a lid on my printer for my skimmer.

Panasonic makes a very good ERV for $400. I think the upper one is $600. You can see my installation on my build thread. They are worth every penny.

 

[reef_ranch]

I am looking at those, but concerned they won't be enough for the space. I have an open floor plan with lots of volume. The tank is covered by cabinetry from the top to the ceiling and there is a bathroom type ceiling exhaust fan that pulls the air out. The problem is its replaced by room air that gets in through the gaps in the cabinetry. My first plan is to investigate putting a small ERV inside the cabinet on the exterior wall and turning off the exhaust fan.