Dosing nitrate

[MohH]

Hi my tank has been running foe several months, i recently started adding sps frags, however my nitrates are at 0ppm(hanna checker) and phosphates are 0.03(hanna checker). I am thinking of dosing nitrates. I found a supplier of chemicals that carries sodium nitrates and obtained and analysis from them... will appreciate it if someone will take a look and determine if its safe for dosing into my tank... thanks

 

[GillMeister]

A lot of people, including myself, use this safely.

 

[MohH]

Seems i cant get that in canada... as wil lots of other fish meds etc.. lol

 

[ReeferLou]

Is it just the cost of the NeoNitro or do you feel the food grade is a better product?

 

[Jekyl]

Could be as easy as feeding more often. I know WWC feeds their frag tanks 3 times a day.

 

[HuduVudu]

If you are going to dose then I would not dose sodium nitrate. I would dose calcium nitrate, or alternatively magnesium nitrate. No need to screw around with sodium levels when there are other solutions.

Honestly though I agree with @Jekyl to feed more.

 

[MohH]

Is it just the cost of the NeoNitro or do you feel the food grade is a better product?

No its not the cost actually i picked up a 500 ml to get started.. since i was reading up on the topic it seemed as though sodium nitrate may be preferred over potassium nitrate.... and it is speculated that neonitrate may contain potassium nitrate... thats all

 

[MohH]

If you are going to dose then I would not dose sodium nitrate. I would dose calcium nitrate, or alternatively magnesium nitrate. No need to screw around with sodium levels when there are other solutions.

Honestly though I agree with @Jekyl to feed more.

Did not consider those options to be honest...makes sense though.... the dosing of nitrates.... i am hoping is a short term option since i allowed my nutrients to hit zero... and i will like to begine correcting that before i bump into bigger problems

 

[HuduVudu]

If your nitrates are zero after being higher it is unlikely that they will go back up. Mine have been zero for almost a year. I used to dose nitrate but it was a large waste of time because as soon as I stopped they would just go back to zero. I don't have algae problems in that tank so I don't worry about it.

 

[GillMeister]

If you are going to dose then I would not dose sodium nitrate. I would dose calcium nitrate, or alternatively magnesium nitrate. No need to screw around with sodium levels when there are other solutions.

Honestly though I agree with @Jekyl to feed more.

I feed a ton in my tank and I have zero nitrates, zero phosphates. As far as the sodium nitrate adding too much sodium to your tank i don't think that's even possible. Is it? You dose such a small amount of this and sodium reacts to other elements immediately if released. I'm no chemist, but Randy Holmes-Farley is and he recommended sodium nitrate.

 

[HuduVudu]

I feed a ton in my tank and I have zero nitrates, zero phosphates. As far as the sodium nitrate adding too much sodium to your tank i don't think that's even possible. Is it? You dose such a small amount of this and sodium reacts to other elements immediately if released. I'm no chemist, but Randy Holmes-Farley is and he recommended sodium nitrate.

The sodium doesn't leave your tank unless you water change, and therein lies the key to dosing either sodium based products or chloride based products. Dosing one or the other will change the balance between the two and also the balance between that one and the other elements. Small amounts and adequate water changes "should" provide minimal impact. What happens when there is nothing to re-balance ions? Do you know? Does Randy know? Where is the threshold before the tank has problems? What might those problems be? Sticking one's head in the sand and saying ohhhh the sodium or chloride level are too high to have any real impact, is a cop out. I can see these as being necessary evils when we talk about calcium and alk replenishment, but when there a alternatives that don't impact the sodium why waste time with the sodium version. Not to mention that if you are trying to get your alk up and then you add more sodium on top of that you are moving the change along faster. New people, and I am not saying the OP is new, rarely understand the chemical impacts of what they are dosing, and the manufacturers don't even bother to explain. Mostly because people want something that is easy.

Just because you think someone is a guru doesn't make them absolutely right on everything and being a sycophant to their advice is a disservice to both them and you. Randy is a chemist. Randy HAD an aquarium for an extended period of time. Randy has good information that is helpful, but Randy is not the be all end all in reef chemistry.

FWIW.

 

[ReeferLou]

If your nitrates are zero after being higher it is unlikely that they will go back up. Mine have been zero for almost a year. I used to dose nitrate but it was a large waste of time because as soon as I stopped they would just go back to zero. I don't have algae problems in that tank so I don't worry about it.

I had 0 nitrate and my zoa were not happy - closed and not growing. After dosing nitrate they are coming back to life - open and coloring up. Not sure I have a choice.

 

[HuduVudu]

I had 0 nitrate and my zoa were not happy - closed and not growing. After dosing nitrate they are coming back to life - open and coloring up. Not sure I have a choice.

You always have choices. Always. That you have chosen this route is fine if that works for you, but to say there is no other way is disingenuous.

 

[GillMeister]

The sodium doesn't leave your tank unless you water change, and therein lies the key to dosing either sodium based products or chloride based products. Dosing one or the other will change the balance between the two and also the balance between that one and the other elements. Small amounts and adequate water changes "should" provide minimal impact. What happens when there is nothing to re-balance ions? Do you know? Does Randy know? Where is the threshold before the tank has problems? What might those problems be? Sticking one's head in the sand and saying ohhhh the sodium or chloride level are too high to have any real impact, is a cop out. I can see these as being necessary evils when we talk about calcium and alk replenishment, but when there a alternatives that don't impact the sodium why waste time with the sodium version. Not to mention that if you are trying to get your alk up and then you add more sodium on top of that you are moving the change along faster. New people, and I am not saying the OP is new, rarely understand the chemical impacts of what they are dosing, and the manufacturers don't even bother to explain. Mostly because people want something that is easy.

Just because you think someone is a guru doesn't make them absolutely right on everything and being a sycophant to their advice is a disservice to both them and you. Randy is a chemist. Randy HAD an aquarium for an extended period of time. Randy has good information that is helpful, but Randy is not the be all end all in reef chemistry.

FWIW.

I'm not looking for an argument. You can use whatever you prefer, if you wish to use anything at all. All I can say is you will not, ever, see free sodium outside a controlled environment. I know from remedial chemistry it reacts quickly if its liberated from a compound. So I'm personally not concerned about having it in my tank.

I'd not seen anyone recommend not using sodium nitrate until today. I have seen multiple people caution against using potassium nitrate and calcium nitrate, however. I got the impression dosing concentration with calcium nitrate was problematic.

 

[RobertTheNurse]

Interesting at how after dosing nitrates and stopped they went back down to 0. I am dealing with a low nutrient issue also...non detectable phos and low nitrates 1.7.

I love zoas and have noted a change in their behavior. Still open, but different. Decreased my water changes to try and build my nitrates up with heavier feeding.

Thinking of going back to the old routine I had "if it ain't broke dont fix" in terms of WC when everything seemed happy.

Will just feeding more coral foods give corals like zoas the nutrients they like?

Just jumping in on this topic as I can relate. Hesitant to add this and add that blah blah blah to my tank personally. I'm running a cannister with no skimmer on a 65G lol how I have NEXT TO NONE nutrients is a mystery (maybe not I dosed vibrant 4 months ago SLIGHTLY then stopped) tanks been up for a year and a bit.

 

[HuduVudu]

I'm not looking for an argument.

But your tone through your entire post is such that you are indeed looking for that, or you are trying to defend your methods. I suggested alternatives. That is all.

You can use whatever you prefer, if you wish to use anything at all.

I don't use nitrate supplements anymore. As stated in my previous posts. I suggested what I suggested for the reasons that I stated. I have not vested interest one way or another. It is sad for me to see people that want to believe that there is one and only one way to solve problems. This is counter-productive in this hobby. You need many possibilities to deal with these very complex systems.

All I can say is you will not, ever, see free sodium outside a controlled environment.

What does this even mean? When you dose sodium nitrate you are dosing two elements sodium and nitrate. This is in an aqueous solution. The ions in solution will either balance with the opposite charged ion or change the ph which is essentially the same.

I know from remedial chemistry it reacts quickly if its liberated from a compound.

Once again I really don't know what you are saying here.

So I'm personally not concerned about having it in my tank.

I would hope not because there is a very large amount of it there. Near 10,000 mg/L

I'd not seen anyone recommend not using sodium nitrate until today.

Ok, that doesn't mean that it isn't used, or that it isn't valid it just means for what ever time you have in the hobby that is what you know, whatever length that is.

I have seen multiple people caution against using potassium nitrate and calcium nitrate, however. I got the impression dosing concentration with calcium nitrate was problematic.

Yet, you can't say why. In this hobby one size doesn't fit all. Multiple solutions is what you need so that you can fit the one that best fits your circumstances.

 

[HuduVudu]

Hesitant to add this and add that blah blah blah to my tank personally.

This is a good thing to think.

how I have NEXT TO NONE nutrients is a mystery (maybe not I dosed vibrant 4 months ago SLIGHTLY then stopped) tanks been up for a year and a bit.

Age changes tanks. They mature and become the things that we see and want.

My personal thought on the nutrients is that it is the "coral" that soak them up. That means that the nitrate is limiting. That is fine, because ultimately that is what reefs do IRL.

 

[RobertTheNurse]

This is a good thing to think.


Age changes tanks. They mature and become the things that we see and want.

My personal thought on the nutrients is that it is the "coral" that soak them up. That means that the nitrate is limiting. That is fine, because ultimately that is what reefs do IRL.

So like, in theory, if I have constant barely noticeable nitrates...as they go up "fish poop" blah blah blah it ultimately gets converted to nitrates...and the softies that love them eat it up?

 

[HuduVudu]

So like, in theory, if I have constant barely noticeable nitrates...as they go up "fish poop" blah blah blah it ultimately gets converted to nitrates...and the softies that love them eat it up?

Let's go to the 2,000 foot view because this will help you understand other things.

When we measure something in our tanks we are measuring the balance. We are also measuring a very specific time and a very specific place. Ok, as an example of a specific time. Think about PH or alkalinity. Where we are in the light cycle matters. Next, place. When we measure nitrates we measure in the water column. In the sand or the rock will certainly give us different readings. Finally measuring the balance. Most elements that we are interested in measuring have an input and an output. Think of it like a bucket where water is coming in and at the bottom there is a valve that is letting water out. Adding more water in than letting water out changes the level, or in this case what we are testing. This is fine but what if you change the level, but then balance the input and output then has anything really changed? The level or the amount that is free in the bucket has changed but this is really not relevant. What is relevant is the amount in matches the amount out, and there is no real way to test that. The best we get is the proxy test of something changing. The worse part is that what is going in changes and what is coming out changes.

Ideally what we want with nitrate and phosphate is that what is going out is greater than what is coming in. That means that these two elements are limiting. I can guarantee you that my nitrate flow through my tank is much greater than yours even though we both measure zero nitrates. To back the assertion would require me to measure how quickly my tank could consume nitrates. This is interesting but not really relevant because for your tank it is working as it is supposed to as long as you know that you have a nitrate input through feeding etc ... If you want to verify you can dose and see how long your tank takes to consume what you dose. For example my tank can consume 20ppm of nitrate in about 2 days. It may be more now but what matters is that I the tank is moving nitrate through. If you dose nitrate and the value doesn't go down then your tank is not moving the nitrate and this is a problem.

Hope that is helpful.

 

[blasterman]

The sodium doesn't leave your tank unless you water change, and therein lies the key to dosing either sodium based products or chloride based products. Dosing one or the other will change the balance between the two and also the balance between that one and the other elements. Small amounts and adequate water changes "should" provide minimal impact. What happens when there is nothing to re-balance ions? Do you know? Does Randy know? Where is the threshold before the tank has problems? What might those problems be? Sticking one's head in the sand and saying ohhhh the sodium or chloride level are too high to have any real impact, is a cop out. I can see these as being necessary evils when we talk about calcium and alk replenishment, but when there a alternatives that don't impact the sodium why waste time with the sodium version. Not to mention that if you are trying to get your alk up and then you add more sodium on top of that you are moving the change along faster. New people, and I am not saying the OP is new, rarely understand the chemical impacts of what they are dosing, and the manufacturers don't even bother to explain. Mostly because people want something that is easy.

Just because you think someone is a guru doesn't make them absolutely right on everything and being a sycophant to their advice is a disservice to both them and you. Randy is a chemist. Randy HAD an aquarium for an extended period of time. Randy has good information that is helpful, but Randy is not the be all end all in reef chemistry.

FWIW.

This is pretty much the same marketing trash BRS pushes and I'm in total agreement with using Sodium Nitrate. Its by far the easiest, cheapest and widely available. If you are going to attack Randy at least dont come off sounding like a scientologist.

If you're worried about adding sodium to a tank you must also be worried about adding H2O molecules.

When I stop dosing bicarb to my tank my alk drops. That's why I dose it it. If I stop dosing nitrate to my tank my nitrate drops. Fish are expensive, getting more expensive and more food just feeds my skimmer.

Adding 1/4 teaspoon a week of sodium nitrate is easy, cheap, consistent and works. Not sure what your issue is, other than pushing eclectic chemistry.