Dry Rock Display - Live Rock Sump

[tmnails]

Putting quality live rock in the sump doesn't make much sense to me. I doubt you'll end up with all the cool stuff in your display. Just yesterday I saw a limpet for the first time. Things are always poping up and almost all are beneficial and there's no way a limpet is going to go from sump to display. That's just one example.

One option I was considering is leaving the live rock in my sump/refugium for 6 to 12 months and observing it, baiting out any hitch hikers, watching for any pests, and then possibly bringing it up to the display when I'm confident there isn't anything malicious in there.

 

[CuzzA]

I would think things like red bugs would not be a concern with purchased live rock. I mean, dedicated coral predators need to have access to coral. Even if a few red bugs (or sundial snails, or bad nudis, etc) end up on the rock, if you wait a reasonable period of time before introducing coral to the display tank you'll starve them out. Unless you end up with a coral colony attached to the TBS rock which is already infested with something.

What I would worry about would be things like aptasia or red planaria - which are more similar to algae, in that they tend to have outbreaks in tanks with poor husbandry.

I have a TBS order coming as soon as storms let up down there. I understand the risky hitchhikers in their rock. All of them are more dangers to fish, trappable, and - most importantly - don't breed in your tank. Thus the problem has an expiration date, more or less.

You're not going to get red bugs from TBS rock because there's no acropora off Tampa Bay. Similarly you're not going to get aptasia because that is an Indo Pacific species. It doesn't exist in the Gulf of Mexico. At least not the type reefers fear.

I would suggest researching the rock. You can go to TBS website and they have a list with picture of the various common hitchikers. Like I said, crabs and shrimp.

 

[Stevel]

I did completely dry rock an added live bacteria to help cycle did get some algae but used the product viabrant it cleared the little hit algae and bubble algae I had. Added coraline in a bottle and after 8 months I have coraline pink and purple growing on all rocks. So far it’s been over a year and all corals growing well. Also I do water change 30 gallons every two weeks.

 

[CuzzA]

One option I was considering is leaving the live rock in my sump/refugium for 6 to 12 months and observing it, baiting out any hitch hikers, watching for any pests, and then possibly bringing it up to the display when I'm confident there isn't anything malicious in there.

That would be fine. Even if one got past you in the display they are pretty easy to catch with or without a trap. Like I said, I speared one the other day. I only had four crabs and one pistol shrimp from my seed rocks. There's a stone crab and pistol shrimp I put in my sump, the rest I kilt.

Nothing can compare to real live rock. Dry rock and bacteria is pretty boring to me.

 

[eschaton]

You're not going to get red bugs from TBS rock because there's no acropora off Tampa Bay. Similarly you're not going to get aptasia because that is an Indo Pacific species. It doesn't exist in the Gulf of Mexico. At least not the type reefers fear.

I would suggest researching the rock. You can go to TBS website and they have a list wity picture of the various common hitchikers. Like I said, crabs and shrimp.

I had read your post before. I saw you said no red bugs, and I know TBS doesn't have the bad kind of aptasia (though there is a Caribbean anemone which looks quite similar. I was talking more broadly about bad hitchhikers. As I've said in the past, there are basically three kinds:

1. Opportunistic predators which are more a threat to fish and motile inverts than coral. Crabs, mantis shrimp, fireworms, predatory snails, etc. Most don't breed in tanks, and all of them can be trapped, meaning they're problems with expiration dates.
2. Dedicated coral predators - red bugs, nudis, sundial snails, etc. These need coral to feed, and won't come in on live rock anyway.
3. Things that have outbreaks in tanks which are not ecologically balanced. Algae is the big one here, but things like aiptasia, red planaria, and arguably vermetid snails and asterina also are here. I honestly think that use of dry rock makes these outbreaks more - not less - likely to happen, because it means you have a very truncated tank ecosystem where it will be easy for any introduced life to expand into open niches.

 

[AlexG]

This is awesome. Are there any pests in your display that you feel came from the live rock in your sump? And does it seem like most of the desireable life from those rocks found its way to the dry rock? Like different species of coralline, feather dusters, any sponges, ect?

I don't feel there are any pests that came from my live rock that made it to the displays. My tanks do have pests but I know that it is almost impossible to keep them out unless some strict protocols are in place which is not something I do at this time. Desirable species of copepods, amphipods, ostracods, mysid shrimp, snails, worms, sponges, algae, bacteria, ect. from the live rock all spread throughout my system providing many large populations of sustainable micofauna that act as a small cleanup crew army that goes mostly unseen. The micro fauna also serves as a natural food source for fish and the corals. When you think about how complex the biodiversity is on a reef and the high level of competition between species all the niches get filled for survival which means each one species of organism big and small serves a purpose which I don't believe is fully understood. If these organisms are part of functioning reef environments for millions of years then I think it is wise to include them in our artificial habitats which is why I always seed my tanks with live rock. My live rock/sand was sourced from Gulf Live Rock.

 

[WVNed]

Lots and lots of crabs. 10 different kinds.

I just did what you are asking about sort of. It went well.
I did a dead aquascape in a 75 and attached it to my system that was also fairly new and had 150 pounds of TBS rock recently added.
The 240 got the rock 8-12-19

The tank with the rock and the 75 under construction 9-30-19

and running 5 days later

12-30-19

 

[tmnails]

One thing that is generally agreed upon is TBS (and quite possibly this KP aquatics) are better cleaner options than the "live-ish" rock that's found in many local fish stores - the stuff that's teeming with aiptasia, practically white, and home to God knows what in terms of critters.

TBS and Kp aquatics are way cleaner, have far more beneficial life, and are less likely to have nuisance hitch hikers. We're just seeing if it's possible to further reduce the risk.

 

[ahiggins]

One thing that is generally agreed upon is TBS (and quite possibly this KP aquatics) are better cleaner options than the "live-ish" rock that's found in many local fish stores - the stuff that's teeming with aiptasia, practically white, and home to God knows what in terms of critters.

TBS and Kp aquatics are way cleaner, have far more beneficial life, and are less likely to have nuisance hitch hikers. We're just seeing if it's possible to further reduce the risk.

That’s what my goal was to begin with. There will be some die off in shipping but the beneficial things you get from quality live rock massively outweighs the potential benefits from dry rock

 

[eschaton]

I don't feel there are any pests that came from my live rock that made it to the displays. My tanks do have pests but I know that it is almost impossible to keep them out unless some strict protocols are in place which is not something I do at this time. Desirable species of copepods, amphipods, ostracods, mysid shrimp, snails, worms, sponges, algae, bacteria, ect. from the live rock all spread throughout my system providing many large populations of sustainable micofauna that act as a small cleanup crew army that goes mostly unseen. The micro fauna also serves as a natural food source for fish and the corals. When you think about how complex the biodiversity is on a reef and the high level of competition between species all the niches get filled for survival which means each one species of organism big and small serves a purpose which I don't believe is fully understood. If these organisms are part of functioning reef environments for millions of years then I think it is wise to include them in our artificial habitats which is why I always seed my tanks with live rock. My live rock/sand was sourced from Gulf Live Rock.

As I said in my post, I feel like paradoxically the efforts by the OCD reefers in the "dry rock/dip everything crowd" make certain types of pest outbreaks way more likely.

Basically starting with a sterile aquascape and then introducing a few beneficial life forms (bacteria, coraline, etc) means you have a very truncated ecosystem versus having a full plate of hitchhikers. There are lots of empty/open niches in your tank. This means that as soon as you slip up it's likely something will be incidentally introduced (on a frag, snail shell, etc) which you don't want, and the lack of competition means it will take off like wildfire.

As an example, consider vermetid snails, which a lot of people consider a pest. They're dang easy to introduce into a tank. They perform a useful task- helping to "polish" water and reduce organic content. But they also are unsightly and cast out mucus nets which can irritate coral. In a tank with high-quality live rock though, they may be a lot less likely to take off, because they're competing in this niche with other life, including sponges, tunicates, and featherdusters. Similarly, in a lot of biodiverse tanks aiptasia is present, but doesn't really wildly proliferate, because there are just so many other competitors for the aptasia niche it can't expand in an uncontrolled manner.

 

[tmnails]

I had read your post before. I saw you said no red bugs, and I know TBS doesn't have the bad kind of aptasia (though there is a Caribbean anemone which looks quite similar. I was talking more broadly about bad hitchhikers. As I've said in the past, there are basically three kinds:

1. Opportunistic predators which are more a threat to fish and motile inverts than coral. Crabs, mantis shrimp, fireworms, predatory snails, etc. Most don't breed in tanks, and all of them can be trapped, meaning they're problems with expiration dates.
2. Dedicated coral predators - red bugs, nudis, sundial snails, etc. These need coral to feed, and won't come in on live rock anyway.
3. Things that have outbreaks in tanks which are not ecologically balanced. Algae is the big one here, but things like aiptasia, red planaria, and arguably vermetid snails and asterina also are here. I honestly think that use of dry rock makes these outbreaks more - not less - likely to happen, because it means you have a very truncated tank ecosystem where it will be easy for any introduced life to expand into open niches.

Thanks for this, it's a great breakdown. I was unable to catch the mantis in my first tank and after a year, I baked all my rock and started over. But that was 8 years ago... I'm sure there are better methods now than the DIY acrylic cage trap I was trying to use.

The outbreak issue is another benefit to live rock. A 100% dry rock start is certainly more sterile to be sure, but that's not necessary what you want. A proven, complete biological system that comes on live rock is more likely to fend off outbreaks down the road.

A strong immune system > washing your hands every 15 minutes lol

 

[tmnails]

12-30-19

So that 75 is only three months old, and started dry with live rock remotely connected?! From here, that looks great!

 

[eschaton]

Thanks for this, it's a great breakdown. I was unable to catch the mantis in my first tank and after a year, I baked all my rock and started over. But that was 8 years ago... I'm sure there are better methods now than the DIY acrylic cage trap I was trying to use.

I know that all reefers have made decisions in the past which they regret, but killing all the life on your LR due to a single mantis shrimp seems really, really excessive. You can still have a successful tank with a mantis - just not one with many small fish (if a "spearer") or crustaceans and mollusks (if a "smasher').

 

[tmnails]

...the efforts by the OCD reefers...

You ripped out my heart with that one, lol.

You're completely right though. I had not fully considered the long term repercussions of a full dry start until recently. And at least starting the live rock in my sump and later moving it to the display may help ease my OCD

 

[tmnails]

I know that all reefers have made decisions in the past which they regret, but killing all the life on your LR due to a single mantis shrimp seems really, really excessive. You can still have a successful tank with a mantis - just not one with many small fish (if a "spearer") or crustaceans and mollusks (if a "smasher').

It was excessive. I relocated half my rock, still heard clicking, and baked roughly half of my rock. Not all of it, I should have been more clear.

I had small fish disappear, and an anthias I found dead with a bloody puncture wound. Snails and hermits would last about 2 weeks, and I never knew why as all my levels were fine and they had plenty of food... Sad times

 

[WVNed]

Like all tanks this young it has had it's ups and downs. The dead rock still went through successive growths of stuff.
I have an eel, fuzzy lion, tang and trigger in it right now. I am trying to grow macro.

 

[tmnails]

Like all tanks this young it has had it's ups and downs. The dead rock still went through successive growths of stuff.
I have an eel, fuzzy lion, tang and trigger in it right now. I am trying to grow macro.

Young yes, but I'm seeing coralline starting even on the back glass and inside that sand bed. From what others have shown, you don't get that kind of action on a full dry start after only 3 months, no matter what kinds of bottles you pour in it.

To me, the remote live rock is definitely doing work here...

 

[WVNed]

It was a bit of an experiment in several ways

It got really ugly for a while but straitened up with appropriate measures.
When you give sea life a blank canvas it goes wild filling it.

No I did not scrub the rocks or any other extreme measures I consider silly. Since this is a predator tank I used urchins and conchs.

 

[tmnails]

It was a bit of an experiment in several ways

It got really ugly for a while but straitened up with appropriate measures.
When you give sea life a blank canvas it goes wild filling it.

No I did not scrub the rocks or any other extreme measures I consider silly.

If that rock was white 3 months ago and is that purple/pink now, and all you did was plumb it into your established system....

That's absolutely nuts...

 

[mikee002]

My mistake-not guarenteed on pests but they give you directions on how to vacate them and “cure” for our uses. I had to go find it again lol

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If I ever order for a dream build-this will be it. The uncured so I can pick and choose what I want.

My dry build, started about 7-8 months ago, and I’m now seeing spec to dime size coralline covering rocks now. The rocks went from white to bright green, light green, dark green/grey. Coralline showed up in tiny specs around the bright green stage in certain high light areas. I didn’t seed either so everything came on snails that’s in there now.

The KP aquatics rock is amazing. Completely covered in multiple colors of Coroline algae, tons of life, a couple hitchhiker corals that survived. I had 1 mantis shrimp I was able to catch. A couple different small crabs that even after a year I rarely see out of their spots. Spiny urchin that had tripled in size. I initially had a huge amount of vegetation, but it was brought under control with cuc. Really amazing rock, and I’ll definitely use it again in the future for new tanks... hopefully I can pickup and save some $$$ since it’s only a couple hour drive for me.