Epoxy/Super Glue Toxin Disaster

[Halal Hotdog]

Yes to QT
Water was perfect. Even took a sample to my lfs to be sure one of my tests wasn’t off.
It was the same reef saver rock I had used recently with no problems. From the same shipment.
Tank is 2 months old. Perfectly cycled with no issues.
It happened too fast for it to be most diseases and it wasn’t Brooklynella. Clownfish were 2 months old as well.
And for someone else to say the exact same combination resulted in the exact same issues with their clownfish at the exact same time as it happened to me? Maybe it’s something wrong with the same shipment batch? I’ll have to ask him if it was a recent purchase like mine.

Could you go into how the fish were quarantined? How large is the tank? How much did the new rock weigh? How many pounds of rock were already in the system prior to addition? I don't believe it was the mixture of epoxy and super glue. I have gone over the ingredients for the plastic bead epoxy and super glue and don't see what could have been created that would have been toxic. That is not to say that wasn't it, just can't find a case of it happening outside of yours. There are a few parasites that can kill very quickly, velvet being one of them. Beyond that you could have had a bacterial bloom from the addition of the new fish that exhausted the O2 supply in your water. O2 is typically something that is not tested. What exactly was tested by your LFS? Do you have any test kits? My goal is to help figure out what happened so it can be avoided in the future by all of us, not to nitpick the details, hope you understand.

 

[Billdogg]

Sorry for your losses!

I took a look at the plastic bead epoxy too. I have a hard time believing that it, combined with superglue (of whatever brand) would release any sort of toxin either. Have you contacted the manufacturer to inquire? I'd be very interested on their take on the matter.

 

[Terri Caton]

Could you go into how the fish were quarantined? How large is the tank? How much did the new rock weigh? How many pounds of rock were already in the system prior to addition? I don't believe it was the mixture of epoxy and super glue. I have gone over the ingredients for the plastic bead epoxy and super glue and don't see what could have been created that would have been toxic. That is not to say that wasn't it, just can't find a case of it happening outside of yours. There are a few parasites that can kill very quickly, velvet being one of them. Beyond that you could have had a bacterial bloom from the addition of the new fish that exhausted the O2 supply in your water. O2 is typically something that is not tested. What exactly was tested by your LFS? Do you have any test kits? My goal is to help figure out what happened so it can be avoided in the future by all of us, not to nitpick the details, hope you understand.

It is a 32 gal tank. Keep in mind all of these fish are small juveniles so not much imprint. The tank is well circulated. There is no way 4 tiny fish and 2 lbs of non-live rock exhausted the O2 supply of a 32 gallon tank.

There was maybe 10 lbs of rock in the tank and this was another 2 maybe? Not much.

It wasn't velvet unless there are cases of fast killer velvet with no visible symptoms. And where would it have come from? The fish that were in there started showing symptoms (although I didn't know it at the time, just hanging out under the overhang) before the other 4 fish were added.

Plus the symptoms my clownfish had were very strongly indicative of toxic shock.

My test kits all showed fine but that's why I took a sample to my lfs to make sure one of my kits wasn't testing incorrectly. They weren't.

Again, same rock as was added at the beginning of the tank. Same shipment. It's Reef Saver rock, not live rock. With the exception that I did put about a 3 lb piece of live rock that had already been cycled in this tank at the start.

QT was not done by me but I fully trust the person who did it.

I think it can't be coincidental that another person had the same thing happen on the exact same day with the exact same ingredients. From a different part of the country.

 

[Terri Caton]

Sorry for your losses!

I took a look at the plastic bead epoxy too. I have a hard time believing that it, combined with superglue (of whatever brand) would release any sort of toxin either. Have you contacted the manufacturer to inquire? I'd be very interested on their take on the matter.

Not yet. I'm not saying that is what is was definitively. There's no way to know for sure. Not like I was going to get a toxicology done on the clownfish. Just a caution to people that this same scenario has happened to me and another person.

 

[Halal Hotdog]

It is a 32 gal tank. Keep in mind all of these fish are small juveniles so not much imprint. The tank is well circulated. There is no way 4 tiny fish and 2 lbs of non-live rock exhausted the O2 supply of a 32 gallon tank.

There was maybe 10 lbs of rock in the tank and this was another 2 maybe? Not much.

It wasn't velvet unless there are cases of fast killer velvet with no visible symptoms. And where would it have come from? The fish that were in there started showing symptoms (although I didn't know it at the time, just hanging out under the overhang) before the other 4 fish were added.

Plus the symptoms my clownfish had were very strongly indicative of toxic shock.

My test kits all showed fine but that's why I took a sample to my lfs to make sure one of my kits wasn't testing incorrectly. They weren't.

Again, same rock as was added at the beginning of the tank. Same shipment. It's Reef Saver rock, not live rock. With the exception that I did put about a 3 lb piece of live rock that had already been cycled in this tank at the start.

QT was not done by me but I fully trust the person who did it.

I think it can't be coincidental that another person had the same thing happen on the exact same day with the exact same ingredients. From a different part of the country.

Yes there are cases of velvet with no physical manifestations, it can hide in the gills, I have seen this first hand. The person you trust, how did they QT the fish? 20% addition of uncycled rock is actually significant. The actual weight isn't the significant part, but that percent it makes up of the whole. It seems your system is light on biological filtration, which could also lead to a bacterial bloom with the addition of 4 fish in an immature small tank. O2 depletion can act quickly on fish behavior and can cause quick death. Based on what you posted, I'm confused how you are certain about toxic shock. Also don't know any details of the other person that had a similar experience as yours. I'm not discounting your conclusion, just that you have too many uncontrolled variables. Too many changes in a short period of time.

I wish you luck with future additions. There are many ways to introduce fish into a closed system. I am a big fan of medicated QT, but that is not the only way to having healthy fish. Going slow is key in this hobby, especially in small tanks. Keeping a close eye on parameters can give you an idea things are going downhill before things die, but is not full proof. If you start seeing cloudy water after addition of new livestock, adding a temporary air pump can help with dissolved O2, but feel a skimmer does a much better job. I'm not a big fan of water changes, but with new small tanks they can be a great way of maintaining clean water.

 

[Terri Caton]

I appreciate your input. However, I am going to go with the opinion and advise of the 2 experts in my area who actually saw the situation first hand. Their mutual but independent conclusion was toxicity from the epoxy/glue combo. Other than that the tank was and continues to be very healthy.

 

[CelticReef]

When epoxies and glues cure it will offgas thats how it becomes hard....who knows what it offgasses could be harmful to clowns but most people don’t have an issue.
I have never been a fan of epoxy curing in a display. Caution is always the best course with chemical reactions. I don’t even add frags without letting the glue cure in a separate bucket first.
We’re all just trying to make sure more fish don’t suffer the same fate best of luck and thanks for sharing your tragedy.

 

[Terri Caton]

Good news, my Yellow Assessor decided to come out of hiding today!

 

[Larry L]

A lot of people posting on this thread seem to be getting thrown off track by the (unfortunate) product name "Reef Welder Plastic Epoxy" - it's not an epoxy at all, it's non-toxic thermoplastic beads that get soft when you put them in hot water and harden again when they cool back down. There's no curing or offgassing or anything that you might expect from real epoxies. The same stuff is sold under a variety of product names or just generically as "thermoplastic beads" e.g. on Amazon.

FWIW I have used thermoplastic in combination with super glues a number of times and have never had a problem, although I suppose it's possible that there could be some sort of chemical interaction.

 

[jennyQwQ]

Hi I know the post was quite long ago, I used the aquascape construction epoxy today and it has cause the same issue on the larger clown fish. Tbf I used quite a lot of epoxy in my tank today. People are saying large amount of epoxy can cause drop of oxygen in the tank. So I turned on a gas bump. My clownfish was laying on the bottom of tank for hours and not looking better. The water was cloudy and turned to clear after few hours. Therefore, I did a 50% water change and the clownfish looks lot more better after that. So I think it must be some sort of toxin released by epoxy. I don’t have anything in my tank that can release toxin by stress.