Experiment converting corals to freshwater

Silent · Oct 6, 2020

I wish I could get the last hour of my life back.

Sharkbait19 · Oct 6, 2020

Eric1493 said:
My point is that when someone insults my knowledge on a subject that I have experience in, I feel the need to justify myself. I didn't say that the corals would never evolve, but I did say that they wouldn't evolve in his time frame, and wouldn't evolve to what he wanted them to evolve into. You obviously at least know that the corals won't meaningfully evolve in this time frame, and you also know that they will die in freshwater. So why do you support his experiment? If you know how absurd and impossible his success is, why do you still think this is a good idea? It may, and I am no expert on coral genetics, be possible over thousands of years, but if you know it won't happen in 5 or 10, why do you still support this. You know that he doesn't have sexually reproducing zoanthids, but you continue to support this experiment. It's these things that confuse me because you claim to have the experience, but you make claims that don't align with the experience.

I only support this experiment, because, and only because, I would like to see how such an experiment would play out. Might it be foolish? Yes. But outside of theoretical possibilities, the only way to know something is to find out by doing it. I agree with you though. If someone insults my knowledge, I'll say what I have to in order to justify my claims as well. I understand how I may sound contradictory to myself. I don't mean to. My stance is, his experiment is flawed, but the idea of such an experiment, tested by anyone, would be interesting. He's the one buying the corals, so is there harm to us if he does something wrong or stupid? No. Obviously he doesn't know that sexual reproduction is needed for evolution, but this forum would hopefully let him find out -- without attacking him. I came into this thread not yet knowing the full details, except the very fact that such an experiment, maybe not done this particular way, could be interesting.

Sharkbait19 · Oct 6, 2020

Honestly, I think the best move would be letting the moderator close this thread so we can all go our separate ways and get our lives back.

Perthegallon · Oct 6, 2020

Sharkbait19 said:
I only support this experiment, because, and only because, I would like to see how such an experiment would play out. Might it be foolish? Yes. But outside of theoretical possibilities, the only way to know something is to find out by doing it. I agree though. If someone insults my knowledge, I'll say what I have to in order to justify my claims as well. I understand how I may sound contradictory to myself. I don't mean to. My stance is, his experiment is flawed, but the idea of such an experiment, tested by anyone, would be interesting. He's the one buying the corals, so is there harm to us if he does something wrong or stupid? Obviously he doesn't know that sexual reproduction is needed for evolution, but this forum would hopefully let him find out -- without attacking him. I came into this thread not yet knowing the full details, except the very fact that such an experiment, maybe not done this particular way, could be interesting.

I guess the regard here is you will be killing corals( animals) but hey beginnings but corals and kill them all the time

((FORDTECH)) · Oct 6, 2020

Jib said:
Looking through your past posts, you also wanted to try converting a Clownfish to to freshwater and asking people how much they would pay and to follow your YouTube channel.

Please don't torture animals for YouTube views. It's not why people are in this hobby.

Omg this is the freshwater clown guy from couple weeks ago. I seen that thread and all I could do is shake my head.

flampton · Oct 6, 2020

@Sharkbait19 please stop saying theoretically when you mean hypothetically

Anyways The first thing that will limit any meaningful evolution to freshwater in terms of millions to billions of years is that with Zoox coral you need genetic changes in two organisms not even considering the holobiont.

So IF you want to have fun I suggest buying some Symbiodinium online. I know live aquaria sells them. Then see if you can adapt them to freshwater. Good luck, lol!

Mr_Knightley · Oct 6, 2020

As everyone has seen, this is ridiculous even posting here anymore. OP clearly does not want advice or warning, even if it is rooted in science completely. I say let him do the experiment! Get off this thread and check back when it fails, if it fails! Leave him to his devices, don't worry about him "torturing coral" as he has said he will remove them when they stress.
I do not, at all, think this will or could work. Not in any reasonable amount of time, at least. But, it is the OP's choice to go on with this and he will not stop. Save your time and skit lol Not even joking, hostility will never convince someone who is set in their ways. If he kills some zoas, he kills some zoas! So what? This is clearly what he intends to do so whether or not it is ethical, sensical or even comprehensible. That is of course, his choice, as ignorance always is, and that choice is not reversible at this time.

Once again, leave OP be. If he kills some zoas, whatever! If he deeply regrets this experiment? We told him! And if this ends up working by some miracle of heaven and he makes millions of of freshwater zoas, then it's our fault we didn't join the bandawagon lol

Hincapiej4 · Oct 6, 2020

KrisReef said:
I had an electrical failure last evening and missed the start of this cool thread.

I've known a lot of folk that keep coral in their fresh water tanks. This is old news and I think the guy is only interested in making a cool video channel and all of us watching. No need to hate.

They take the coral out and bleach it when it gets covered in algae. HA! It can be done!

LOL bleach it when covered in algae omg. I wonder if they'll get it. lol

Eric1493 · Oct 6, 2020

Sharkbait19 said:
I only support this experiment, because, and only because, I would like to see how such an experiment would play out. Might it be foolish? Yes. But outside of theoretical possibilities, the only way to know something is to find out by doing it. I agree though. If someone insults my knowledge, I'll say what I have to in order to justify my claims as well. I understand how I may sound contradictory to myself. I don't mean to. My stance is, his experiment is flawed, but the idea of such an experiment, tested by anyone, would be interesting. He's the one buying the corals, so is there harm to us if he does something wrong or stupid? Obviously he doesn't know that sexual reproduction is needed for evolution, but this forum would hopefully let him find out -- without attacking him. I came into this thread not yet knowing the full details, except the very fact that such an experiment, maybe not done this particular way, could be interesting.

The problem is that you know that it won't work, but you still want to do it. I agree that the idea is interesting, and would be great if done by a competent person under a controlled setting. There are plenty of competent people that have posted and have demonstrated that they know what they're doing. But what OP proposes is wrong, and he refuses to accept that, and because of that, he needs to know that this is a horrible idea. But he's probably going to either try it and waste some zoas or he's gonna realize that he can't control the salinity or something and abandon the experiment, and thats that.

BZOFIQ · Oct 6, 2020

KrisReef said:
I had an electrical failure last evening and missed the start of this cool thread.

I've known a lot of folk that keep coral in their fresh water tanks. This is old news and I think the guy is only interested in making a cool video channel and all of us watching. No need to hate.

They take the coral out and bleach it when it gets covered in algae. HA! It can be done!

I've seen freshwater corals too, I swear!

They were grown from resin and their growth was "locked"

Thales · Oct 6, 2020

BZOFIQ said:
I'd love to hear from our own skeptical reefkeeper Richard Ross @Thales on this subject.

Rich?

I think this is like saying you are going to evolve dogs to fly by tossing them off higher and higher structures.

flampton · Oct 6, 2020

Well you see this board has an ethics policy and I personally feel that not responding is unethical on my part. In fact I hope a moderator reaches out and discusses this with the OP

Perthegallon · Oct 6, 2020

BZOFIQ said:
I've seen freshwater corals too, I swear!

They were grown from resin and their growth was "locked"

Polyps are present in fresh-waters, the exoskeleton of the corals would dissolve in fresh water because it does not have enough minerals.

92Miata · Oct 6, 2020

Sharkbait19 said:
I only support this experiment, because, and only because, I would like to see how such an experiment would play out.

We know how it'll play out. He'll kill his zoanthids.

Might it be foolish? Yes. But outside of theoretical possibilities, the only way to know something is to find out by doing it. I agree though.

No, its really easy to know what's going to happen - because that's literally what science is about - building a framework of knowledge and experimental results to allow us to make predictions.

That's why real experiments require a plausible method of action - we don't perform experiments on animals unless we're almost completely sure the outcome is going to be successful - because we understand the biological pathways involved, and the methods with which our interventions will work.

We don't just say - hey - this person has the flu - lets try rubbing oxyclean on their ears and see if it works - we work out a plausible biological pathway for which the intervention would work - and then we test that pathway in an isolated way (IE, via chemical methods, or bacteria/etc) . And if that pathway works - we move up to testing it on slightly more complex animals.

We have sufficient knowledge to predict the outcome of his experiment with absolute certainty. We know it won't work. We know there's no plausible method for it to work.

He needs to do way more legwork.

If he wants freshwater corals - he needs to find a coral that's present in a wide range of salinity in the wild - then he needs to figure out exactly how the coral does that, and whether that process would be viable in an even wider range of salinity - then he needs to figure out how to reproduce it sexually.

Until he does that - hes just killing animals for fun.

Sharkbait19 · Oct 6, 2020

Here's something interesting I just found:

Surprising, Vibrant Reef Discovered in the Muddy Amazon

Colorful sea fans, fish, and gigantic sponges found in murky waters. One scientist says the reef has the most amazing animals she’s ever seen on an expedition.

www.nationalgeographic.com

Amazon Reef - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Though this isn't freshwater coral, the Amazon rivers and shores are very murky and muddy. This showed that corals can be adaptive to different environments, such as a low light murky region. Just some food for thought!!

Sharkbait19 · Oct 6, 2020

I

92Miata said:
We know how it'll play out. He'll kill his zoanthids.

No, its really easy to know what's going to happen - because that's literally what science is about - building a framework of knowledge and experimental results to allow us to make predictions.

That's why real experiments require a plausible method of action - we don't perform experiments on animals unless we're almost completely sure the outcome is going to be successful - because we understand the biological pathways involved, and the methods with which our interventions will work.

We don't just say - hey - this person has the flu - lets try rubbing oxyclean on their ears and see if it works - we work out a plausible biological pathway for which the intervention would work - and then we test that pathway in an isolated way (IE, via chemical methods, or bacteria/etc) . And if that pathway works - we move up to testing it on slightly more complex animals.

We have sufficient knowledge to predict the outcome of his experiment with absolute certainty. We know it won't work. We know there's no plausible method for it to work.

He needs to do way more legwork.

If he wants freshwater corals - he needs to find a coral that's present in a wide range of salinity in the wild - then he needs to figure out exactly how the coral does that, and whether that process would be viable in an even wider range of salinity - then he needs to figure out how to reproduce it sexually.

Until he does that - hes just killing animals for fun.

I agree. I only support the idea of such an experiment. I don't care about how he specifically does the experiment. If he does it wrong, that's on him.

Hincapiej4 · Oct 6, 2020

It's ok guys! Just stop! He'll put them in the water, slowly lower the salinity, and if they start to stress because of the freshwater, he'll take them out and put them on the counter. Then they will evolve to live in oxygen without water, and he will be able to smell them when they release their pollen for the bumble bees to come pollinate. Then, they'll start to grow outside with all their other plant friends for all the bees to enjoy!

Sharkbait19 · Oct 6, 2020

Eric1493 said:
The problem is that you know that it won't work, but you still want to do it. I agree that the idea is interesting, and would be great if done by a competent person under a controlled setting. There are plenty of competent people that have posted and have demonstrated that they know what they're doing. But what OP proposes is wrong, and he refuses to accept that, and because of that, he needs to know that this is a horrible idea. But he's probably going to either try it and waste some zoas or he's gonna realize that he can't control the salinity or something and abandon the experiment, and thats that.

He definitely shouldn't try it on zoas, that is a bad pick. I don't want him to do this poorly executed experiment, though I do support his general interest in freshwater corals.
If I am accidentally giving him false hope, I don't intend to. I'm just giving my two cents, and he can take that however he wants to.

Sharkbait19 · Oct 6, 2020

Hincapiej4 said:
It's ok guys! Just stop! He'll put them in the water, slowly lower the salinity, and if they start to stress because of the freshwater, he'll take them out and put them on the counter. Then they will evolve to live in oxygen without water, and he will be able to smell them when they release their pollen for the bumble bees to come pollinate. Then, they'll start to grow outside with all their other plant friends for all the bees to enjoy!

That made me laugh really hard lol!