Fed up with Apex

[Saveafish]

Wonder how many of the 7206 I would need to light my tank. 280 gallon 6ft long, 2ft wide, 3ft high.

3 long wise. They'll punch deep. Think of LEDs with mini T5 reflectors on them.

 

[jporter17]

I am another that went from a full Apex to GHL when I upgraded tanks a couple years ago. I had a few failures on the Apex and wanted to try the GHL. I have since sold off the Apex gear and don’t foresee ever going back to them. The GHL has been rock steady after trying to totally forget Apex programming and understanding the different configuration of the GHL. Marco and their service team have been very responsive and easy to work with helping me with upgrades and questions of proper setup. Marco even stopped me on the floor of MACNA last year as he recognized my badge and remember helping me remote via team viewer. The main unit reminds me of a small computer and the probes have been rock steady since initial install,and calibration. I’m happy I changed over. JP

 

[Snookin]

Well, a quick perusal of eBay shows that their “MAP” pricing isn’t preventing resellers from offering tridents for obscene amounts of money online. And Neptune could easily write the MAP clause to set a max price while allowing vendors to sell the product for less if they were trying to prevent price gouging. Neptune would make the same amount even if the seller offered it on sale.

MAP pricing is something that companies with monopolies typically pull. It doesn’t help the consumer. It helps the company make their product seem like a premium product that never goes on sale. It’s in the interest of the company at the expense of the consumer.

Listen, I get it. If I had cornered the market I would do everything I could to protect my market share. That’s exactly what Neptune is doing using every tool they have available. It’s not in our interests. It’s in their interest.

You obviously have no clue what a MAP policy is.

 

[RobW]

3 long wise. They'll punch deep. Think of LEDs with mini T5 reflectors on them.

Nice!

 

[Ditto]

Wonder how many of the 7206 I would need to light my tank. 280 gallon 6ft long, 2ft wide, 3ft high.

Are you doing a sps or lps tank? 3 at a min 4 if you are doing a heavy stocked lps would provide the coverage needed for you.

 

[N2950H]

I recently made an uninformed purchase on a used Apex classic but have not used any of their equipment yet as my Waterbox is still on backorder. So I can't provide any meaningful feedback one way or the other on Neptune. My plan is to use what I have until the GHL Mini Wifi is available in the states later this year...then I'll likely make a wholesale switch to GHL.

I'm glad a lot of people have had success with Neptune, but I've not been impressed with them. A guy can only read so many stories of horrible customer service before he opts not to take the risk. I get that you only hear from the people that were screwed over but the number of people who have had these terrible experiences is alarming. I've also sent them a couple emails while shopping for a controller, and they were pretty dismissive of my concerns.

I'll be honest and say that 50% of the reason I want to go GHL is aesthetics. I don't want to support a company who manufactures serious life support equipment and then houses them in something that looks like it came from Fisher-Price. Call me silly, I don't care, but when I put money into my hobbies I want the equipment to look professional. In my mind, it's a huge bonus that GHL appears to stand behind their equipment and support their customers in a big way. If they didn't, I'd probably just stick with the Apex classic which looks nice and hope I never have to deal with their customer service...or never want to buy any of their new equipment which is not backward compatible (e.g., Trident...which also looks awful).

 

[RobW]

Are you doing a sps or lps tank? 3 at a min 4 if you are doing a heavy stocked lps would provide the coverage needed for you.

I was going to do a mixed reef probably sps dominant. I was thinking 4 anyway... can always dim it down. At this point, what the heck is another 800.00 bucks when this setup will cost nearly 15k before I put the first drop of water in it. I think I just threw my budget out the window. I completely lied to my wife when I told her we could get a tank going for like 5-6 grand. Lol!

 

[N2950H]

At this point, what the heck is another 800.00 bucks when this setup will cost nearly 15k before I put the first drop of water in it.

Holy Moly! I need to go check out your build thread.

 

[RobW]

I recently made an uninformed purchase on a used Apex classic but have not used any of their equipment yet as my Waterbox is still on backorder. So I can't provide any meaningful feedback one way or the other on Neptune. My plan is to use what I have until the GHL Mini Wifi is available in the states later this year...then I'll likely make a wholesale switch to GHL.

I'm glad a lot of people have had success with Neptune, but I've not been impressed with them. A guy can only read so many stories of horrible customer service before he opts not to take the risk. I get that you only hear from the people that were screwed over but the number of people who have had these terrible experiences is alarming. I've also sent them a couple emails while shopping for a controller, and they were pretty dismissive of my concerns.

I'll be honest and say that 50% of the reason I want to go GHL is aesthetics. I don't want to support a company who manufactures serious life support equipment and then houses them in something that looks like it came from Fisher-Price. Call me silly, I don't care, but when I put money into my hobbies I want the equipment to look professional. In my mind, it's a huge bonus that GHL appears to stand behind their equipment and support their customers in a big way. If they didn't, I'd probably just stick with the Apex classic which looks nice and hope I never have to deal with their customer service...or never want to buy any of their new equipment which is not backward compatible (e.g., Trident...which also looks awful).

I agree! The build quality of the equipment far surpasses what the Apex stuff looks like. I'm glad I wasnt further along in my build and started to buy that sort of equipment yet. I am definitely going to make the switch to GHL. I went through their entire product line and accessories over the weekend and read about all their stuff after seeing this thread. I'm sold on it. Seem that they have everything I need to worry about. Plus I like their like lights! Radions and Hydras are in the same ballpark so why not have the ultimate in control with them integrated with the system.

 

[RobW]

Holy Moly! I need to go check out your build thread.

I shouldnt say before I put water in it but, it really isnt hard to tear up that kind of money in this hobby with a larger tank.

Sump is 1050.00
Tank is costing me 1300.00 because I'm making it myself.
Skimmer 700.00
Bio-reactor 600.00
5 eco-tech Vectra L2 2500.00
Lighting 3000.00
Plumbing, valves, flow sensors, etc 500-700
2 uv sterilizers 1200.00
Litermeter 3 auto water change and top off equipment. 1000.00
Water storage tanks 300.00
All the plumbing and electrical materials to get the room ready. Who knows?
All the GHL pieces to control and monitor?
Albeit some stuff can be added after the tank is up and running and I have a need for it. But it's still a new car no matter how you look at it.

 

[N2950H]

I shouldnt say before I put water in it but, it really isnt hard to tear up that kind of money in this hobby with a larger tank.

Sump is 1050.00
Tank is costing me 1300.00 because I'm making it myself.
Skimmer 700.00
Bio-reactor 600.00
5 eco-tech Vectra L2 2500.00
Lighting 3000.00
Plumbing, valves, flow sensors, etc 500-700
2 uv sterilizers 1200.00
Litermeter 3 auto water change and top off equipment. 1000.00
Water storage tanks 300.00
All the plumbing and electrical materials to get the room ready. Who knows?
All the GHL pieces to control and monitor?
Albeit some stuff can be added after the tank is up and running and I have a need for it. But it's still a new car no matter how you look at it.

Will you adopt me?

 

[Rscott]

Im new to the hobby and just spent a bunch of cash on an Apex.
I am also an electrical engineer with a focus in controls. Maybe i should of just wrote my own software.
For those guys out there with massive systems perhaps i can help if they are interested in a custom control scheme using industrial hardware.
Its cheaper then one might think

 

[Pntbll687]

Kyl,
What you mentioned about GHL not being in the local stores was also an original deciding factor leading to the Apex. I may have convinced one of my LFS to try to start supplying GHL products, but more as to have a variety and differentiate from every other store in town. I may even order the gear through them to start, just so we all have a look at it together.
The issue I have with the other company is that they have placed a strict policy with their vendors that once the purchase is made refunds and replacements are to be done through the company only. So in my situation if my LFS owner wasn’t already fed up with them and their attitude, I would have driven to the store, purchased let’s say the pair of pumps, got home and installed, one pump not working, maybe two hours of searching for info online and a call to customer service, wait for email with the incident report and pack the gear, drive to post office and send the gear with the hopes of a replacement soon. A policy like this means they don’t believe to much in their hardware either, at least to me that is what it seems. What does it matter if they receive a return from a store or a customer?

There are lots of companies that have this type of policy!

It is in part to reduce the number of returns/exchanges made on high dollar items (and they use the same policy on all merchandise to keep things consistent). So, let's say you buy an APEX and it "isn't working" when you get it all set up. You call the LFS and they say to come by and they'll swap it out. You do so, and hook up your new APEX and it still doesn't work. You call customer service and they walk you through some troubleshooting and fix the issue (which ended up being you needed to toggle on and off a certain setting). You're all set and good to go. BUT, the LFS now has a "not working" APEX in their hands, and they send it back to neptune and get credit for it., which puts them back to even, great for them. BUT now neptune has an apex that was open and used, what are they supposed to do with it? Sell it used? Refurbish it and sell it as new? Now they're -1 APEX unit in sales and have something they can't use/sell. All of which could have been avoided with a phone call to customer service in the first place.

A different view on the policy would be this... They believe in their product and want to service it with customer support and troubleshooting because let's face it most computer issues are user error or bug fixes that can be done remotely. And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what a warranty on product is for? You don't necessarily get to swap out a product because you think it isn't working correctly, you have to follow the warranty procedures. A company that says 'just replace it' has ZERO faith in their product and are EXPECTING failures, so much so that they have already put extra product out there to be swapped out.

 

[GK3]

Im new to the hobby and just spent a bunch of cash on an Apex.
I am also an electrical engineer with a focus in controls. Maybe i should of just wrote my own software.
For those guys out there with massive systems perhaps i can help if they are interested in a custom control scheme using industrial hardware.
Its cheaper then one might think

So bit of rant here but I don’t think you could do it cost effectively.

I work in Industrial Automation and looked into this. There is no way you could do what apex/GHL does for the same price. If you had 1000 other people who wanted it too so you could do bulk orders, then okay maybe. But to do a 1 off, no way.

The sensing of Conductivity, pH, Orp, would cost you $600 ish in probes and circuits alone. Then there is the EB8, simple to build with some digital IO, transistors, and beefy relays...but you are still looking at 75-100 in parts.

Also remember that you are able to control it from anywhere with internet access with no monthly fee. So basically you have to find a free cloud platform that you can talk to, or pay your IP provider for a public, static IP address. The latter is not cheap.

If you go buy the new apex base unit - 4 probes, brain, new EB8, it’s $800. I challenge anyone to build it for that hardware price (not even your time) using an industrial PLC or even a raspberry pie.

 

[GK3]

There are lots of companies that have this type of policy!

It is in part to reduce the number of returns/exchanges made on high dollar items (and they use the same policy on all merchandise to keep things consistent). So, let's say you buy an APEX and it "isn't working" when you get it all set up. You call the LFS and they say to come by and they'll swap it out. You do so, and hook up your new APEX and it still doesn't work. You call customer service and they walk you through some troubleshooting and fix the issue (which ended up being you needed to toggle on and off a certain setting). You're all set and good to go. BUT, the LFS now has a "not working" APEX in their hands, and they send it back to neptune and get credit for it., which puts them back to even, great for them. BUT now neptune has an apex that was open and used, what are they supposed to do with it? Sell it used? Refurbish it and sell it as new? Now they're -1 APEX unit in sales and have something they can't use/sell. All of which could have been avoided with a phone call to customer service in the first place.

A different view on the policy would be this... They believe in their product and want to service it with customer support and troubleshooting because let's face it most computer issues are user error or bug fixes that can be done remotely. And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what a warranty on product is for? You don't necessarily get to swap out a product because you think it isn't working correctly, you have to follow the warranty procedures. A company that says 'just replace it' has ZERO faith in their product and are EXPECTING failures, so much so that they have already put extra product out there to be swapped out.

Or they just say “replace it” because the item is inexpensive. There are tons of items out there that are cheaper to replace than repair. For example, a FMM from apex. If that thing dies, I’ll guarantee you apex gives you a new one instead of replacing it. By the time you pay someone who has the skill level to diagnose, open, repair, close, and ship. You are way upside down on that module.

 

[justingraham]

I’m in the same boat as most of u to much invested in Neptune to get anything worth it back

Then When they announced the trident almost three years?? I don’t remember possibly two years ago I went and got the new apex like an idiot

Everyone of my Neptune products has had problems
Solenoid atk my water sensors my flow meters cor20 wav’s and new brain one link salinity probe I actually lied I havnt had a problem with my dos yet
Their customer Service is great but as people have said I have paid a lot of shipping to get my products to work under warranty

If there was anyway I could swap my stuff out without a huge loss I would I don’t like the way the company is heading right now the arrogance and the way I feel they talk down to us the consumers I don’t particularly like but I am not rich I am comfortable but not rich so if I could do it all over again I would do ghl hands down

 

[Pntbll687]

Or they just say “replace it” because the item is inexpensive. There are tons of items out there that are cheaper to replace than repair. For example, a FMM from apex. If that thing dies, I’ll guarantee you apex gives you a new one instead of replacing it. By the time you pay someone who has the skill level to diagnose, open, repair, close, and ship. You are way upside down on that module.

Of course that's true!

But neptune isn't going to have multiple return policies for specific items, so they need it all to follow the same procedure, which is to go through them and not the store. They'll replace items where it's economically feasible, and repair others.

The policy isn't meant to not replace items that are defective and under warranty. It is to catch the $1200 return before it happens and correct the situation.

Is it frustrating at times, yes, because we want things fixed now. But we also buy items and agree to follow warranty info and procedures as agreed to with the purchase. And the LFS also agreed to certain terms when they decided to carry the line.

 

[Pntbll687]

I’m in the same boat as most of u to much invested in Neptune to get anything worth it back

Then When they announced the trident almost three years?? I don’t remember possibly two years ago I went and got the new apex like an idiot

Everyone of my Neptune products has had problems
Solenoid atk my water sensors my flow meters cor20 wav’s and new brain one link salinity probe I actually lied I havnt had a problem with my dos yet
Their customer Service is great but as people have said I have paid a lot of shipping to get my products to work under warranty

If there was anyway I could swap my stuff out without a huge loss I would I don’t like the way the company is heading right now the arrogance and the way I feel they talk down to us the consumers I don’t particularly like but I am not rich I am comfortable but not rich so if I could do it all over again I would do ghl hands down

They make you pay shipping when it is under warranty???

 

[Rscott]

So bit of rant here but I don’t think you could do it cost effectively.

I work in Industrial Automation and looked into this. There is no way you could do what apex/GHL does for the same price. If you had 1000 other people who wanted it too so you could do bulk orders, then okay maybe. But to do a 1 off, no way.

The sensing of Conductivity, pH, Orp, would cost you $600 ish in probes and circuits alone. Then there is the EB8, simple to build with some digital IO, transistors, and beefy relays...but you are still looking at 75-100 in parts.

Also remember that you are able to control it from anywhere with internet access with no monthly fee. So basically you have to find a free cloud platform that you can talk to, or pay your IP provider for a public, static IP address. The latter is not cheap.

If you go buy the new apex base unit - 4 probes, brain, new EB8, it’s $800. I challenge anyone to build it for that hardware price (not even your time) using an industrial PLC or even a raspberry pie.

Challenge accepted

but also, i never said it would be cheaper then Apex. But i did say it would be better.
I also work in automation but after years of application and integration i am now a researcher for a top big 3 company in the US.

I think we can do it, maybe not cheaper but even if it was double the cost but worked flawlessly people would still buy it. especially the guys with big tanks.

If you build it, they will come

 

[justingraham]

They make you pay shipping when it is under warranty???

Somethings yes i Was going on vacation for a month and my afs stopped working for the second tome so I had it overnited same thing with my wavs
The brain I didn’t have to I don’t think but I did go two days without a controller