Feeling conflicted about keeping wild caught fish

[edsbeaker]

Yesterday was a rough day having lost a flame angel that was shipped to me and arrived in a bad way and ultimately died a few hours later.

Today my mind is going to the fact that this fish was in the ocean not so long ago and would most likely be alive had there not been a market for him. I love this hobby and want to keep enjoying it, but I’m needing some help seeing the positives of keeping these wild caught fish.

Please try to convince me it’s OK!!!

 

[exnisstech]

Warning: old guy ramblings below.
I won't try to convince you because I have mixed feelings myself. That said I no longer order online. I only buy fish I can see in person and verify that they are healthy or at least look healthy. I then do everything under my power to keep them healthy. They go into observation in an established tank with live rock full of pods along with softies. I will not put a fish into a sterile pvc filled tank and start medication. If I don't see signs of illness I observe only. I've never lost a fish in observation this way. I have lost fish while doing medicated qt in the past. Perhaps I did it wrong but I don't think so. Anything I can do to reduce stress I do. I believe many fish in our care die from stress or stress related illness. I don't mix fish that are known not to get along just to see if it works. I do everything I can to try and provide an environment that the fish can thrive in as I do with any creature I bring into my home. I figure I owe them that much. I love the hobby and I love having fish to watch and care for so I'm not going to stop keeping fish. They're like pets and act like pets begging for food and following me around the tank. I like to think maybe they're living a longer healthier life under my care than they would in the wild. I dunno maybe I'm fooling myself but I did recently spend over $10k to set up a new tank because I thought my tangs were looking cramped in the 180g I had them in and they really seem to be enjoying the extra swim room. It's a tough decision but a personal one and I understand your concerns.

 

[Slocke]

I think the biggest argument for wild caught is to look at what happened in Hawaii after the ban. The people who made a living catching fish for the aquarium trade suddenly had to switch to find a new way of making money. Easiest switch was to catch fish for food. The problem is that fish caught for food were worth far less so they had to catch far more. End result is more dead fish.

Saying this I would still like to see more captive bred fish and corals.

 

[littlefoxx]

I love captive bred fish, but Ill make the argument for my wild caught fish in my tank. None of them have to worry about not finding enough food. My eels have learned to come out and up to the front glass when they are hungry and I had feed them all the food they desire. My tangs always have nori, and none of them have to worry about being killed or eaten by sharks and other big predators. That said, its the collection market thats awful, the methods some of them use is just cruel. So I get it, thats just how I look at keeping my fish. but there are species I just dont like being in the trade because they really dont do well. Those should be left in the ocean and just the fish that can and have shown they can adapt to aquarium live should be kept

 

[bobnicaragua]

There’s always stamp collecting.

 

[edsbeaker]

Warning: old guy ramblings below.
I won't try to convince you because I have mixed feelings myself. That said I no longer order online. I only buy fish I can see in person and verify that they are healthy or at least look healthy. I then do everything under my power to keep them healthy. They go into observation in an established tank with live rock full of pods along with softies. I will not put a fish into a sterile pvc filled tank and start medication. If I don't see signs of illness I observe only. I've never lost a fish in observation this way. I have lost fish while doing medicated qt in the past. Perhaps I did it wrong but I don't think so. Anything I can do to reduce stress I do. I believe many fish in our care die from stress or stress related illness. I don't mix fish that are known not to get along just to see if it works. I do everything I can to try and provide an environment that the fish can thrive in as I do with any creature I bring into my home. I figure I owe them that much. I love the hobby and I love having fish to watch and care for so I'm not going to stop keeping fish. They're like pets and act like pets begging for food and following me around the tank. I like to think maybe they're living a longer healthier life under my care than they would in the wild. I dunno maybe I'm fooling myself but I did recently spend over $10k to set up a new tank because I thought my tangs were looking cramped in the 180g I had them in and they really seem to be enjoying the extra swim room. It's a tough decision but a personal one and I understand your concerns.

Thank you for taking the time to write that long response. It really speaks volumes to your commitment to care for these animals. I also try to give my fish a wonderful environment and hope they are happy.
What I take away from your response is that maybe it’s OK to feel conflicted, but at the same time do everything possible to not let those creatures down.

 

[edsbeaker]

I love captive bred fish, but Ill make the argument for my wild caught fish in my tank. None of them have to worry about not finding enough food. My eels have learned to come out and up to the front glass when they are hungry and I had feed them all the food they desire. My tangs always have nori, and none of them have to worry about being killed or eaten by sharks and other big predators. That said, its the collection market thats awful, the methods some of them use is just cruel. So I get it, thats just how I look at keeping my fish. but there are species I just dont like being in the trade because they really dont do well. Those should be left in the ocean and just the fish that can and have shown they can adapt to aquarium live should be kept

This is a really good point! Maybe the fish with the best survival rate are less worrisome to take from the ocean. You are right about how despicable some of these fish collecting methods are.

 

[edsbeaker]

There’s always stamp collecting.

BORING!!!

 

[zheka757]

....I seeing videos of fish being eating by another fish in the ocean!

 

[edsbeaker]

....I seeing videos of fish being eating by another fish in the ocean!

Ok…that’s a GREAT argument.

 

[PharmrJohn]

Yeah I have the same misgivings. I try to tell myself that when I buy a fish, it's probably going to a better tank than most. That its odds for survival are greater. But one could argue that I am supporting that gathering of these lifeforms. That I'm adding to the problem. So I weigh it out. Is my contribution to these acts a great one? The answer being no, I buy the fish. In the end I convince myself it's OK and move on. But I DO understand. And @zheka makes a good point! So they probably WILL live longer under our care! I'll go with that......

 

[edsbeaker]

Yeah I have the same misgivings. I try to tell myself that when I buy a fish, it's probably going to a better tank than most. That its odds for survival are greater. But one could argue that I am supporting that gathering of these lifeforms. That I'm adding to the problem. So I weigh it out. Is my contribution to these acts a great one? The answer being no, I buy the fish. In the end I convince myself it's OK and move on. But I DO understand. And @zheka makes a good point! So they probably WILL live longer under our care! I'll go with that......

I really hope that they do have a better life in the tanks of people who know what they are doing. Maybe I should start focusing on that.

 

[EliMelly]

I really hope that they do have a better life in the tanks of people who know what they are doing. Maybe I should start focusing on that.

That’s a good idea. Feed the best foods possible, provide an adequately sized habitat and they’ll live a great life!

 

[RWReefer]

Warning: old guy ramblings below.
I won't try to convince you because I have mixed feelings myself. That said I no longer order online. I only buy fish I can see in person and verify that they are healthy or at least look healthy. I then do everything under my power to keep them healthy. They go into observation in an established tank with live rock full of pods along with softies. I will not put a fish into a sterile pvc filled tank and start medication. If I don't see signs of illness I observe only. I've never lost a fish in observation this way. I have lost fish while doing medicated qt in the past. Perhaps I did it wrong but I don't think so. Anything I can do to reduce stress I do. I believe many fish in our care die from stress or stress related illness. I don't mix fish that are known not to get along just to see if it works. I do everything I can to try and provide an environment that the fish can thrive in as I do with any creature I bring into my home. I figure I owe them that much. I love the hobby and I love having fish to watch and care for so I'm not going to stop keeping fish. They're like pets and act like pets begging for food and following me around the tank. I like to think maybe they're living a longer healthier life under my care than they would in the wild. I dunno maybe I'm fooling myself but I did recently spend over $10k to set up a new tank because I thought my tangs were looking cramped in the 180g I had them in and they really seem to be enjoying the extra swim room. It's a tough decision but a personal one and I understand your concerns.

I’d like to follow your process via observation. Do you consider this quarantine/do you dose in that tank if needed? Care to share photos of the setup?

 

[Tamberav]

The captive bred list is growing and we are so lucky to have what we do. it wasn't long ago that it was clownfish and maybe bangaii.

Biota does sell captive bred flames

Bonus is you get to see a fish grow from a tiny juvi to an adult and morph in color and body shape and you know that fishes age and that it can live a long life if well cared for.

I do hate shipping fish as it breaks my heart to see them die, there is no LFS where I live now so that is the only option most of the time but I do make a 2 hour drive south to pick up fish now and agian.

I will say that many fish still die in shipping.. to whole saler... to the LFS... to you... so in reality... it's just not seeing it in front of you but it's still there.

Sorry, thats not an answer to what you wanted, the opposite really. I buy wild fish but will purchase captive when I can.

The fish that do make it into tanks... if they have a good keeper will have lower stress than in the wild.

If you can buy diver direct (basically KPA's Caribbean fish) they probably don't have much of a death rate there. They are netted and don't travel far and you get an exceptional specimen that you know is free of cyanide and not starved along the way from far off places.

Also some fish are much better shippers than others and choosing a vender to supply them is important.. and proper quarantine.

This is my latest addition from Fishotel, went in today, hour later he’s out and eating (the spots are just particulate in the water, no filtration or sump yet).

 

[vetteguy53081]

While I support captive bred and great to see many varieties forthcoming into the hobby and used to commercial foods and sea mixes. My tank of 38 fish is 97% wild caught and acclimation and preparedness is key

 

[edsbeaker]

The captive bred list is growing and we are so lucky to have what we do. it wasn't long ago that it was clownfish and maybe bangaii.

Biota does sell captive bred flames

Bonus is you get to see a fish grow from a tiny juvi to an adult and morph in color and body shape and you know that fishes age and that it can live a long life if well cared for.

I do hate shipping fish as it breaks my heart to see them die, there is no LFS where I live now so that is the only option most of the time but I do make a 2 hour drive south to pick up fish now and agian.

I will say that many fish still die in shipping.. to whole saler... to the LFS... to you... so in reality... it's just not seeing it in front of you but it's still there.

Sorry, thats not an answer to what you wanted, the opposite really. I buy wild fish but will purchase captive when I can.

The fish that do make it into tanks... if they have a good keeper will have lower stress than in the wild.

If you can buy diver direct (basically KPA's Caribbean fish) they probably don't have much of a death rate there. They are netted and don't travel far and you get an exceptional specimen that you know is free of cyanide and not starved along the way from far off places.

I just looked at the Biota Group website. I wasn’t aware that they had that many varieties of captive bred. The majority are out of stock so I don’t know what the wait time would be for a lot of them, but I’m sure it’s going to improve in time. That’s a great thing for sure. I think cost is an issue with captive bred now, too, but maybe in 10 years they will become more widely available and reasonably priced.

 

[edsbeaker]

While I support captive bred and great to see many varieties forthcoming into the hobby and used to commercial foods and sea mixes. My tank of 38 fish is 97% wild caught and acclimation and preparedness is key

My tank is on the smaller side, 75 gallons, but with a 3’ x 2’ footprint, I have mostly smaller fish, maybe 30% captive bred.

 

[Tamberav]

I just looked at the Biota Group website. I wasn’t aware that they had that many varieties of captive bred. The majority are out of stock so I don’t know what the wait time would be for a lot of them, but I’m sure it’s going to improve in time. That’s a great thing for sure. I think cost is an issue with captive bred now, too, but maybe in 10 years they will become more widely available and reasonably priced.

Cost has slowly gone down on all of them, the first captive yellow tangs were very expensive. Technically the golden basslet was a fish that cost thousands when it was wild caught only and $600 would have been unthinkable at the time.

Sometimes they go fast and fish will be sold out in 15 min so you basically need to sign up for the waitlist to be emailed and jump on them. The demand seems to certainly be there.

I don't find wild that much more affordable tbh.. either you are paying extra to have them quarantined, or you are doing it yourself which is time and money... or you are just rolling the dice and hope disease doesn't wipe out your tank.

I haven't had any issue with the captives and disease as long as they came from the source and not a LFS/middleman.

 

[exnisstech]

I’d like to follow your process via observation. Do you consider this quarantine/do you dose in that tank if needed? Care to share photos of the setup?

I don't add a lot of fish so there may not be a lot to follow.

It is QT but observation with the exception I will medicate (dose) in this tank but nothing that isn't reef safe. Also only if symptoms are noticed. Copper or other treatment would get moved to a seperate tank.

I just finished the second round of prazi. The CBB was already in for a few months and I introduced a melanurus in hopes of it helping with a flatworm issue I have in one of my tanks. I noticed the wrasse flashing so I decided to treat with prazipro. I normally wouldn't add a second fish but I wanted the CBB to learn to eat with some competition and needed the wrasse anyway so? This is the current set up a few weeks ago . A 29g tall with aquaclear 110 and a jebao power head. The rock is from a tank tear down of mine.

The wrasse will be coming out tomorrow.

EDIT : For the wrasse police there is currently a clay pot full of sand that the wrasse dives into every eve about 20 minutes after sunset and he stays in there until around 11am