Fish dying with no obvious cause

Thatmeganchickk · Mar 14, 2020

Help! I’ve had this tank 6+ months and got it from someone who had it running for 3 years. It came with two fish (6 line wrasse and clarkii clown). I had no issues for a few months and added a cat shark I hatched from an egg end of December. Everything was going well. Then one day I couldn’t find the wrasse anywhere... I talked to some of you and my LFS and ended up getting a purple queen and pajama cardinal. The purple queen NEVER came out, I’d sometimes see him eat in a back corner during feeding but he was never swimming out in the tank. I asked the LFS guy to come over to just make sure I was doing my routine care correctly (all good but he advised me to remove all Kenyan trees and replace the feather plant with cheato). So I pulled out all the Kenyan trees and traded out my sump plants like he said. Then I didn’t see my shark for a few days... and then I found the purple queen dead in one of my live rocks. I took the body in and he showed me the tear in the fin from bullying (the clarkii clown 100%). When I got home I noticed the pajama had tears in his fins as well and I decided to rehire the clown. I also found the shark’s body (more signs of bullying). So I traded the clown in for a perc clown and a copper banded butterfly fish. This was three days ago. The clown has white puffs from stress that appeared right when I poured him into my tank and he generally paces in one bottom corner of the tank. The copper banded was gasping for air this afternoon and just passed away. I have no idea what to do and I don’t want to keep losing fish. I trust my LFS guy and he says to do a total water change (I hosed off all my live rock last weekend so thats why he thinks it has to be water, nothing else) but so far I’m not doing too well following his advice. What can I do?? I am new to this hobby and I don’t want to give up on it but I’m losing hope and fish! I’m bringing the clown back to his store tomorrow to hopefully help him survive. The pajama seems ok in the tank. He’s been eating and everything like you’d expect. Is there something obvious we are missing?
My 75 gallon tank has about 10 pieces of live rock, clean sand, a working wave maker, and a sump with cheato. The temperature is always between 76-78F. I turned my protein skimmer off for a few days because I treated the tank for red algae (he said I had a bloom from removing the Kenyan trees). Would these be a cause?
Sorry for rambling, I’m just freaking out!

Tahoe61 · Mar 14, 2020

Your LFS is giving you bad advice on fish choices if you're newer hobbyist.
Anthias are harder fish to feed and acclimate as is the butter fly.
An adult clown that has staked out its territory will often bully new introductions.
Get an acclimation box.
Hope this turns around for you.
Welcome to R2R.

Thatmeganchickk · Mar 14, 2020

Tahoe61 said:
Your LFS is giving you bad advice on fish choices if you're newer hobbyist.
Anthias are harder fish to feed and acclimate as is the butter fly.
An adult clown that has staked out its territory will often bully new introductions.
Get an acclimation box.
Hope this turns around for you.
Welcome to R2R.

So if I leave just the pajama and perc clown in for a while, you think the clown will calm down and they’ll be fine? I just really don’t want anyone else to die. I have a small mesh box that might be considered an acclimation box? I just put the copper banded in there to try and get him closer to the water surface but he died anyway.

Thatmeganchickk · Mar 14, 2020

The perc is not bullying (just to clarify) he has these stress spots but seems to be coming out of his corner a bit more

Big G · Mar 14, 2020

Those white spots look like lymphocystis. White cottony/fibrous/cauliflower like growth. It's a usually harmless virus. Here's more info:

Lymphocystis

Lymphocystis What You Need To Know: * This is a virus that many fish carry for life. The white nodules (cauliflower-like growths) can grow both externally and internally; so symptoms are not always visible. * There is no known cure for Lympho. However, feeding vitamin-enriched foods and...

www.reef2reef.com

Adding Beta Glucan to the fish's food can help with Lympho: https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/9/aafeature

Thatmeganchickk · Mar 14, 2020

Update: the copper banded is NOT dead. He’s propped himself up a bit in the mesh box and seems to be breathing the air above the water surface. I really want to take him to a fish store where he will survive but they’re all closed for the night. Is there anything I can do??

Thatmeganchickk · Mar 14, 2020

Big G said:
Those white spots look like lymphocystis. White cottony/fibrous/cauliflower like growth. It's a usually harmless virus. Here's more info:

Lymphocystis

Lymphocystis What You Need To Know: * This is a virus that many fish carry for life. The white nodules (cauliflower-like growths) can grow both externally and internally; so symptoms are not always visible. * There is no known cure for Lympho. However, feeding vitamin-enriched foods and...

www.reef2reef.com

Adding Beta Glucan to the fish's food can help with Lympho: https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/9/aafeature

Good to know. I thought that too when researching fish disease. I just don’t want it spreading to others so I’m glad you agree with my thought (I read that this doesn’t spread to others - is that correct?)

Big G · Mar 14, 2020

Turn the lights off. It will lower the CBBs stress a bit.

Lymphocystis is contagious. It's kinda like the human herpes virus. It will come and go throughout the fish's life. Some think that most fish already have the virus as it is the most common fish "condition" we come across.

Thatmeganchickk · Mar 14, 2020

Big G said:
Turn the lights off. It will lower the CBBs stress a bit.

Lymphocystis is contagious. It's kinda like the human herpes virus. It will come and go throughout the fish's life. Some think that most fish already have the virus as it is the most common fish "condition" we come across.

Ok, the lights are off! Thank you! I just hope he hangs on until tomorrow so I can get him back to the fish store where he was doing ok at.
Ok, I’ll make sure to add some beta glucon to their food and maybe it’ll help everyone avoid it flaring up.

Big G · Mar 14, 2020

Thatmeganchickk said:
Ok, the lights are off! Thank you! I just hope he hangs on until tomorrow so I can get him back to the fish store where he was doing ok at.
Ok, I’ll make sure to add some beta glucon to their food and maybe it’ll help everyone avoid it flaring up.

There are a variety of Beta Glucan's on the market. The kind I recommend is derived from algae. It comes is a capsule form so it's very easy to use a 1/2 capsule when I mix up my fish "smoothie" every few days or so.
This is the one I use. I get it from Amazon:

Thatmeganchickk · Mar 14, 2020

Big G said:
There are a variety of Beta Glucan's on the market. The kind I recommend is derived from algae. It comes is a capsule form so it's very easy to use a 1/2 capsule when I mix up my fish "smoothie" every few days or so.
This is the one I use. I get it from Amazon:

What do you include in your fish smoothie? I just feed frozen mysis shrimp

Big G · Mar 14, 2020

I buy 7-8 different frozen fish cubes like mysis, brine shrimp, chopped clams, cyclops, fish eggs, algae mix, reef mix, etc. The more the better. Take one cube of each and place into a dish, then into the fridge. Allow the cubes to "slump" (thaw). Drain off or strain the excess liquid, it can spike your nitrates and phosphates! To that mix I add 1/2 capsule of Beta Glucan or vitamins like Selcon, Zoecon, Vitachem, but BG is awesome. If you want a thicker mix add Seachem Focus (binder) and then add a few drop of RO or tank water to the desired consistency you want to work with. The mix will stay good in the fridge for a few days. Your fish will love it and they will get a really wide spectrum of fats, proteins and vitamins.

Nothing more boring than fat, happy, healthy fish! LOL

Can also do a similar version with chopped up fish, clams, mussels, etc. from your seafood/meat market. I do it with the scraps leftover from cleaning fish, crabs after a trip to the ocean.

Thatmeganchickk · Mar 14, 2020

Big G said:
I buy 7-8 different frozen fish cubes like mysis, brine shrimp, chopped clams, cyclops, fish eggs, algae mix, reef mix, etc. The more the better. Take one cube of each and place into a dish, then into the fridge. Allow the cubes to "slump" (thaw). Drain off or strain the excess liquid, it can spike your nitrates and phosphates! To that mix I add 1/2 capsule of Beta Glucan or vitamins like Selcon, Zoecon, Vitachem, but BG is awesome. If you want a thicker mix add Seachem Focus (binder) and then add a few drop of RO or tank water to the desired consistency you want to work with. The mix will stay good in the fridge for a few days. Your fish will love it and they will get a really wide spectrum of fats, proteins and vitamins. Nothing more boring than fat, happy, healthy fish! LOL
Can also do a similar version with chopped up fish, clams, mussels, etc. from your seafood/meat market. I do it with the scraps leftover from cleaning fish, crabs after a trip to the ocean.

Ok! I’ve just been thawing out a bit of the mysis in a cup full of tank water and then dumping it all back in. So you don’t have them in any liquid while thawing?

VKP01 · Mar 14, 2020

Do you test any water parameters besides temp?

Big G · Mar 15, 2020

Thatmeganchickk said:
Ok! I’ve just been thawing out a bit of the mysis in a cup full of tank water and then dumping it all back in. So you don’t have them in any liquid while thawing?

Nope just put an assortment of the frozen cubes into a small bowl with a lid to thaw in the fridge. You want to strain off the liquid from the cubes. It's amazing how it will spike your nitrates and phosphates. I've even used that liquid to raise my nitrates and phosphate levels in my tank when they got too low.

Thatmeganchickk · Mar 15, 2020

VKP01 said:
Do you test any water parameters besides temp?

Phosphate, nitrate, calcium, KH, and specific gravity all within normal parameters

laverda · Mar 15, 2020

I have to agree you have gotten some bad advice from the LFS. Fins also become damaged from ammonia. Ammonia cause difficulty in breathing as well. Why did you wash your rock off? How? How old is your tank? Have you tested for ammonia and nitrite?
Your tank looks like you have new dry rock in it which takes a good while to get established. Also washing the rock could kill the beneficial bacteria on it causing your tank to cycle again assuming it had cycled completely already.
The more I think about it it seams like your tank is not cycled yet,

VKP01 · Mar 15, 2020

I agree that ammonia sounds like it could be a suspect

Thatmeganchickk · Mar 15, 2020

We tested for ammonia a week ago with nothing showing up. I can buy an at home test and check it again tomorrow. The copper banded was the only one having breathing issues, so I don’t think he would have been the only one affected if it was a big water issue?
I hosed off the rock with my garden hose to get bubble algae and the remainder of the Kenyan trees off without doing it in the water. My LFS assured me it wouldn’t be an issue. The tank is between 3-4 years old. I got it already established 6 months ago. I didn’t have any issues until he told me to pull the Kenyan trees out but failed to mention that I should do this outside of the tank. All the rock came with the tank so it is at least 6+ months old. It looked more established before I removed the Kenyan trees.
I went to the LFS today and dropped off the perc and the body of the copper band. I’m doing frequent water changes and just added in carbon. It seems like my protein skimmer is about to kick the bucket so I’ll be picking up a new one of those as well. So my tank just has the pajama cardinal, 12 hermit crabs, and some bigger crab I saw last week while cleaning. I’m going to leave it like this for a few weeks and then retest the water to see if anything changed and then I’ll add in fish from a different store. I’m done buying from that guy since he was not giving me good buying advice and he always blamed my tank/my fish for things happening instead of realizing that I was being very honest when I said I was a clueless beginner. Let me know if there is anything else I should do.
Im pretty upset about losing this fish... it’ll be the 3rd fish I’ve bought from him in the last 3 months that died - all 3 died within a 30 day period (a few days after pulling the Kenyan trees). I’m just hoping giving the tank some time to settle and continuing with the water changes will bring it back and let me have a happy tank again.

Big G · Mar 15, 2020

I'm kind of a luddite. I don't use a skimmer. But I've read where many have said you don't really need one running during start up. Let's see if that is the way to go or not. Help is on the way #reefsquad