Fish immune to disease?

[Squidward]

Now Squidward, it is your turn to show how a mature, healthy ich free tank is supposed to look like. Healthy means everything that can spawn, is spawning and dying of only old age.
If it actually is healthy and looks good, post pictures or start a thread of your practices.

Of course you can write a book as it doesn't cost anything because Amazon will publish it

You can brag about your book and all but in today's world your way is just not practical. My tank has been ich free since 2019 when I began it. The only couple I keep are a pair of flamehawks. I have 11 tangs. I'll let you know how long my tank stays up.

 

[Lasse]

I do not really understand your problem Brandon. But apparently you have some difficulties to understand written words and understand what they means. One thing is if you not understand me but most of people advocating natural tanks and only treatment if there is indications of a certain disease are native English speakers. They all says - and me too - we have not get the experiences of treating sick fish - we can´t advise because lack of training. If you get a sick fish - do not ask me how to do - I have not that experience because the way I run my aquarium - I´m very seldom up to the problem with a sick fish. And because I have a long experiences of not getting my fish sick - I can tell how my thinking and how my setup work so people all around have a chance. But it means long and stable tanks with lot of biological thing taking place. I understand that you will not accept that solution because you advocate regular nukes with help of peroxide.

If @atoll come and visit me here in Sweden and want to drive a car. What would the best I should do. Tell him that we drive on the right side here or check him and his car very well and directly get me a specialist training on how to treat people who have had car accidents?

I can't answer for him but I do TTM with prazipro and it's been great! I don't have to worry about introducing parasites cause anything wet gets qurantined.

Good for you. A little question only - what will happen if you miss a single parasite or any other pathogen and it slips into this system? Glad you have manage that system for the whole period of three years without any diseases. Mine have - with the opposite method - been up for 5 years with the same result. Latest addition a copperband.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Squidward]

Good for you. A little question only - what will happen if you miss a single parasite or any other pathogen and it slips into this system? Glad you have manage that system for the whole period of three years without any diseases. Mine have - with the opposite method - been up for 5 years with the same result. Latest addition a copperband.

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks. My qurantine protocol is strict. I don't plan on letting any parasite go into my system. My system is mainly a fowler with a few softies and an bubble tip anemones. And since I'm fully stocked at my max I don't plan on buying anything else. Since mines is parasite free, I'm able to keep the most ich magnet fish such as Achilles, Powder Blue, and Hippo. 11 Tangs in total. By the way your display looks Great!

 

[brandon429]

Lasse my issue has always been that if you posted a thread where someone wanted to move tanks to a new house, we could do that and I would not hesitate to post the recommended procedure and I’d stick around for the outcome.


but you guys won’t do that in the help threads, you only post about your own tanks. I know you three have powerful methods but instead of having others read your tank and try to assemble it’s best features, you all could post in their thread the non qt recommends using the tools they have at their disposal

I know you understand that clearly for sure


the links I posted need help. Pros need to work some and link them here we already know you guys’ home reefs are best in class. Show us how others can step up using your methods, pick a new disease post today that will be entered, and work it before Jay fixes it using the zoo way


dont use any old threads make a new response linked to a help request thread


if someone wants to remove their sandbed or move homes we are already 100% sure that will turn out fine, I know fish disease isnt that finite but then again just a few years ago removing sandbeds was impossible, it would harm the nitrification.

you guys need to begin the journey of win some lose some live time. In other people’s threads, see what patterns you can hone out it would change the hobby. I agree qt causes loses, we need a better way but so far all work threads will be met with qt advice because that’s the best way we have in 2021


work thread adventures, in other people’s posts not ones you originate, are how you change that

 

[Lasse]

I´m sure that I in some thread give the advise that if you are going to move a fully working tank - or when you buy an already working tank - that just remove the fish and corals. transport them as usally in a plastic bag (with oxygen if it is a long move). Take out the sand - rinse a little but not to much. Keep as much of the old water as possible - at least 30 - 50 % if it is possible. Rinse filters passably. if possible - not feed for 2 - 3 days before the move. But these advise just get drowned in many strange advice about a total new start from scratch. and this with a well working aquaria. It was just a too simple advice.

IMO - there is two major types of advisers here

!) the ones that thinks that people is dumb and therefore need advisers that point with the whole hand do that. that and that and salvation will come after 7 days and if you do not do as I say - you will en up in the vale of tears
2) The ones that know that normal people have their own head and can add 1 to 1 and surprisingly often get¨it to be 2. Therefore is knowledge the most important factor to convey. IMO - with biological system - you can never give an manual and expect that anyone should be successful - there most be as many as possible tools to use because there is endless ways that something can go wrong. As an example - I argue very much against the use of metronidazole and its derivate. Should I use it by myself if I had clear indications of an infection that could be treatable with this drug - Yes - definitely but only in cases there it is clear indications for using this drug. And only a white thin poo is not enough of indication for any disease.

I like the picture that someone said - let us talk about aquarium immunity instead for immunity for single fishes. I would use the word heard immunity in order to describe aquariums like mine and other on the dark side.

Without having any numbers - I assume that parasite problems is more common in FO system because parasites is not only parasites - in their free swimming stage their are also food for catching animals like corals and sponges.

As an example - the question if Pauls cardinal will survive or not is if they get reinfected and the rate of reinfection is higher than the rate they lose their parasites. With other words - the basic reproduction number (R0) is of importance even among epidemics among fishes


Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

I don't plan on letting any parasite go into my system.

It is good - but if it something I have learned along the years is that plans are just plans and seldom reality. Your chose of pathway leave you with no backup or flexibility - IMO. If the plan fall - your aquarium fall. I´m a little bit more circumspective - I want more soft ground to land on when Murphys law strike a homerun

Sincerely Lasse

 

[WVNed]

It goes way beyond ich and the other commonly mentioned diseases though. I have never had any of the other problems there are huge threads for either like dinos.

I am ignoring a lot of the conventional wisdom on here about a lot of things. My way is working for me and I will continue it.
If I perceived a need to QT I would be doing it. I spare no effort for my tanks.
I simply have never seen a need for it.

 

[zalick]

@atoll @Paul B @Lasse

Can gut biome be restored? Can weakened immunity be strengthened?

I’ve been reef keeping for about 23yrs but My current system is 13 years old and was started with real live rock from Fiji. Most of my fish went straight from my LFS to my tank. Plop and drop. (There are a couple new additions that I bought pre QT with medication). I feed only high quality LRS and make my own from fresh never frozen sea food. I feed 3-5x a day or more. My fish are aged 5-13, fat happy and spawn. I’ve never lost a Display tank fish to parasites. I did lose some anthias to uronema in an observation tank a few years ago.

By all accounts, I’m running my system the “natural way” as advocated above. One difference is I do not run ozone or DE or an H202 reactor (oxydator). I know Paul runs DE filter on occasion and Atoll runs an h202 reactor. Both are potential forms of parasite control. I had been running a high powered UV for the past 7 years but I took it offline a few months ago to see if it made any difference.

So, what would happen if I introduced a fish with visible uronema or velvet? This is a genuine question. We know these infections do not wipe out all fish on a reef yet sometimes wipe out a whole tank.


Do you three believe there is no risk to my current old inhabitants who have healthy robust immune systems? Would it wipe out my new QT fish but not my old unmedicated fish? Can the QT fish rebuild their Gut biome and immune system with the proper diet and environment?

is it purely the fishes healthy immune system in your tanks that keeps parasites in check or is there a need for additional parasite control such as a DE filter, h202 reactor or UV?

I’m trying to learn the common denominators that are necessary for successful parasite management. Here is what I’ve observed:
1. Fresh food, but not a specific food since you three feed different foods.
2. Real live rock
3. Maybe Mechanical parasite control - DE filter, h202 reactor.
4. Minimally medicated fish (fish may have been exposed to low levels of copper at some point in supply chain)

things that don’t matter:
1. Actual age of tank setup. Lasse has a newer setup that didn’t get wiped by disease. Seems the live rock provides the age not the setup.

 

[MnFish1]

@atoll @Paul B @Lasse

Can gut biome be restored? Can weakened immunity be strengthened?

I’ve been reef keeping for about 23yrs but My current system is 13 years old and was started with real live rock from Fiji. Most of my fish went straight from my LFS to my tank. Plop and drop. (There are a couple new additions that I bought pre QT with medication). I feed only high quality LRS and make my own from fresh never frozen sea food. I feed 3-5x a day or more. My fish are aged 5-13, fat happy and spawn. I’ve never lost a Display tank fish to parasites. I did lose some anthias to uronema in an observation tank a few years ago.

By all accounts, I’m running my system the “natural way” as advocated above. One difference is I do not run ozone or DE or an H202 reactor (oxydator). I know Paul runs DE filter on occasion and Atoll runs an h202 reactor. Both are potential forms of parasite control. I had been running a high powered UV for the past 7 years but I took it offline a few months ago to see if it made any difference.

So, what would happen if I introduced a fish with visible uronema or velvet? This is a genuine question. We know these infections do not wipe out all fish on a reef yet sometimes wipe out a whole tank.


Do you three believe there is no risk to my current old inhabitants who have healthy robust immune systems? Would it wipe out my new QT fish but not my old unmedicated fish? Can the QT fish rebuild their Gut biome and immune system with the proper diet and environment?

is it purely the fishes healthy immune system in your tanks that keeps parasites in check or is there a need for additional parasite control such as a DE filter, h202 reactor or UV?

I’m trying to learn the common denominators that are necessary for successful parasite management. Here is what I’ve observed:
1. Fresh food, but not a specific food since you three feed different foods.
2. Real live rock
3. Maybe Mechanical parasite control - DE filter, h202 reactor.
4. Minimally medicated fish (fish may have been exposed to low levels of copper at some point in supply chain)

things that don’t matter:
1. Actual age of tank setup. Lasse has a newer setup that didn’t get wiped by disease. Seems the live rock provides the age not the setup.

I'll answer - no one knows. Most of the comments from people that run "natural tanks" seem to relate to what they think is happening. In fact no one knows anything about their fishes gut biome - or whether its restorable - or even if its destroyed by 'long quarantine' or copper or anything else. Likewise, people that QT do not know that there are no parasites in their tank or whether their quarantine protocol is the reason for their success. Why can I say this heresy with such conviction? Because there are lots of people that QT with successful tanks, despite the comments of a couple people AND most people on this site (if one believes the polls) do not QT at all let alone with medications. IMHO this is also why these threads go on and on. Because everyone is certain that whatever they are doing is causing their fish to not have disease. IMHO, Fish like every other animal tend to resist disease. Except for my belief in this, I would probably quarantine - because from a scientific perspective, to me it makes sense. Feeding, low stress environments, etc should be everyone's 'method'.

The one comment that I read here that I find amazing is one poster saying 'I just threw 2 sick fish in my tank without treatment, I didnt see them again, I assume they died'. I guess thats one 'natural' way to manage an aquarium. My guess is that in Sweden, that would be illegal? (Serious question @Lasse)

 

[MnFish1]

We want the no qt crew to write out a bullet point list of what new keepers can do to stem the tide of this disease loss, it’s rampant.



heres my list based on reading you guys’ build threads, as a rough go-

-must have mature rocks. Either buy them matured and mailed to you, or wait two to five years in your current dry rock system before adding fish, you need the supporting maturity system for disease suppression.

-feeding, folks feed their tank the equivalent of 3x a day happy meals and we wonder why disease is rampant. Search out no quarantine setups, feed like they do only, stop the reef fast fooding

what’s some more bullet points those are my two top takeaways

In defense of the 'no quarantine' team. I believe @Paul B and @Lasse have in fact posted their methods in bullet point form. You can go to Lasse's build thread where its all described - and If my memory is correct he has posted separately his method.

Here is the method most people follow here from my 'reading of threads' (I'm not talking about Lasse, Paul or Atoll):

1. Put the fish in the tank and hope.
2. See Number 1.

Most people here do not QT according to the polls (several of them). That alone should be the 'work thread' you are wanting to see?

 

[ThRoewer]

In defense of the 'no quarantine' team. I believe @Paul B and @Lasse have in fact posted their methods in bullet point form. You can go to Lasse's build thread where its all described - and If my memory is correct he has posted separately his method.

Here is the method most people follow here from my 'reading of threads' (I'm not talking about Lasse, Paul or Atoll):

1. Put the fish in the tank and hope.
2. See Number 1.

Most people here do not QT according to the polls (several of them). That alone should be the 'work thread' you are wanting to see?

I've learned the hard way that an observational quarantine is a necessity.
Every new fish I get will be kept separate from my established fish for a minimum of 60 days.
I do not do prophylactic treatments and only treat when necessary.
I do have multiple multi tank systems and getting a serious parasite like Amyloodinium into one would most definitely end in disaster.
Now, with a standalone tank and carefully selecting only fit looking fish that appear free of infections a no quarantine strategy may work, but there always remains a risk.
I would always advocate setting up an observational quarantine tank (that can be an otherwise fishless invert or coral system or a bare clay pot or pvc decorated tank) into which new arrivals go before being moved to the main display. I think we owe that bit of caution to our established fish.

 

[zalick]

I've learned the hard way that an observational quarantine is a necessity.
Every new fish I get will be kept separate from my established fish for a minimum of 60 days.
I do not do prophylactic treatments and only treat when necessary.
I do have multiple multi tank systems and getting a serious parasite like Amyloodinium into one would most definitely end in disaster.
Now, with a standalone tank and carefully selecting only fit looking fish that appear free of infections a no quarantine strategy may work, but there always remains a risk.
I would always advocate setting up an observational quarantine tank (that can be an otherwise fishless invert or coral system or a bare clay pot or pvc decorated tank) into which new arrivals go before being moved to the main display. I think we owe that bit of caution to our established fish.

This is the method I plan to follow for future additions. I simply do not want to risk my current fish. They are like family members. I have an established invert/coral observation tank. Started with some DT live rock. Any new fish will be added there first to observe and adjust to my feedings environment etc . The water in the invert tank is taken from the DT.

 

[Lasse]

Interesting post

@atoll @Paul B @Lasse

Can gut biome be restored? Can weakened immunity be strengthened?

Probably - but not for sure - depends - IMO - on the damage. I think we will get more information of this in the coming years. What Triton and development of the ICP has done for the chemical balance maybe aquabiomics will do for the microbial balance

I’ve been reef keeping for about 23yrs but My current system is 13 years old and was started with real live rock from Fiji. Most of my fish went straight from my LFS to my tank. Plop and drop. (There are a couple new additions that I bought pre QT with medication). I feed only high quality LRS and make my own from fresh never frozen sea food. I feed 3-5x a day or more. My fish are aged 5-13, fat happy and spawn. I’ve never lost a Display tank fish to parasites. I did lose some anthias to uronema in an observation tank a few years ago.

By all accounts, I’m running my system the “natural way” as advocated above. One difference is I do not run ozone or DE or an H202 reactor (oxydator). I know Paul runs DE filter on occasion and Atoll runs an h202 reactor. Both are potential forms of parasite control. I had been running a high powered UV for the past 7 years but I took it offline a few months ago to see if it made any difference.

I also run an Oxidator - have done that in this tank since start. Its like using both hinges and belt. If any parasites or pathogen bacteria shows up in my system - I want them as low as I can in numbers because number in itself can cause stress - I use to compare with if I hit my thumb with a needle - it will not mean anything - the thumb will manage that - but if I will hit it with the same needle 10,000 times in an hour - I will have no thumb left

So, what would happen if I introduced a fish with visible uronema or velvet? This is a genuine question. We know these infections do not wipe out all fish on a reef yet sometimes wipe out a whole tank.

Its here the epidemics theories come in. Personal speaking - I would not introduce a fish that have indications of a disease in my DT. It is a question of infection rate and fight against the pathogen. with some parasites that´s only is on the host for eating and leaving after that - if leaving are more frequent compared with the reinfection - the disease will kill itself

Do you three believe there is no risk to my current old inhabitants who have healthy robust immune systems? Would it wipe out my new QT fish but not my old unmedicated fish? Can the QT fish rebuild their Gut biome and immune system with the proper diet and environment?

I think that the treated fish can rebuild their systems. i´m not against treatment when it is needed - onlt for "in case off"

is it purely the fishes healthy immune system in your tanks that keeps parasites in check or is there a need for additional parasite control such as a DE filter, h202 reactor or UV?

As i say - I run an oxydator - but also all of my filtering animals like sponges and clams help me controlling free swimming parasites. Probably - coral will catch some too. i will say - it is the whole package. However - I have run without my oxidator and I think that it is more needed in a rather unmatured system or in FO tanks

I’m trying to learn the common denominators that are necessary for successful parasite management. Here is what I’ve observed:
1. Fresh food, but not a specific food since you three feed different foods.
2. Real live rock
3. Maybe Mechanical parasite control - DE filter, h202 reactor.
4. Minimally medicated fish (fish may have been exposed to low levels of copper at some point in supply chain)

things that don’t matter:
1. Actual age of tank setup. Lasse has a newer setup that didn’t get wiped by disease. Seems the live rock provides the age not the setup.

In my case - i think the density of "hungry mouths" is of importance too. It means my dense coral population and of cause my Clams that filtrer more water than my other filters.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

I've learned the hard way that an observational quarantine is a necessity.
Every new fish I get will be kept separate from my established fish for a minimum of 60 days.
I do not do prophylactic treatments and only treat when necessary.
I do have multiple multi tank systems and getting a serious parasite like Amyloodinium into one would most definitely end in disaster.
Now, with a standalone tank and carefully selecting only fit looking fish that appear free of infections a no quarantine strategy may work, but there always remains a risk.
I would always advocate setting up an observational quarantine tank (that can be an otherwise fishless invert or coral system or a bare clay pot or pvc decorated tank) into which new arrivals go before being moved to the main display. I think we owe that bit of caution to our established fish.

It is OK for me but somethings people often forget is that it is in must cases - IMO - there is not a danger with taking in things but more a danger that something in the old DT attack the newcomers. If I should run a seperate QT - I would either use the same water but with a very powerful UVC on the outgoing water from the the shared sump or if it is totally separated - during the last weeks of QT do regular WC with help of the water from the DT

Sincerely Lasse

 

[zalick]

Interesting post



Probably - but not for sure - depends - IMO - on the damage. I think we will get more information of this in the coming years. What Triton and development of the ICP has done for the chemical balance maybe aquabiomics will do for the microbial balance



I also run an Oxidator - have done that in this tank since start. Its like using both hinges and belt. If any parasites or pathogen bacteria shows up in my system - I want them as low as I can in numbers because number in itself can cause stress - I use to compare with if I hit my thumb with a needle - it will not mean anything - the thumb will manage that - but if I will hit it with the same needle 10,000 times in an hour - I will have no thumb left



Its here the epidemics theories come in. Personal speaking - I would not introduce a fish that have indications of a disease in my DT. It is a question of infection rate and fight against the pathogen. with some parasites that´s only is on the host for eating and leaving after that - if leaving are more frequent compared with the reinfection - the disease will kill itself



I think that the treated fish can rebuild their systems. i´m not against treatment when it is needed - onlt for "in case off"



As i say - I run an oxydator - but also all of my filtering animals like sponges and clams help me controlling free swimming parasites. Probably - coral will catch some too. i will say - it is the whole package. However - I have run without my oxidator and I think that it is more needed in a rather unmatured system or in FO tanks


In my case - i think the density of "hungry mouths" is of importance too. It means my dense coral population and of cause my Clams that filtrer more water than my other filters.

Sincerely Lasse

Thank you for the detailed reply. Very informative.

I’ve been debating adding an oxydator to my system based upon reading @atoll posts on the various forums. Do you find it has any negative effect on pod populations? Or in your experience does it react only with the more microscopic forms first?

 

[Lasse]

Do you find it has any negative effect on pod populations?

The simple answer here - i do not know. I stop during some months because they was declining - but it was no change at all in population. If you run it low - no problem I think. If you run it a little harder (take out parasites) - yes it will probably take the good guys too but @atoll may have a better answer

Sincerely Lasse

 

[zalick]

The simple answer here - i do not know. I stop during some months because they was declining - but it was no change at all in population. If you run it low - no problem I think. If you run it a little harder (take out parasites) - yes it will probably take the good guys too but @atoll may have a better answer

Sincerely Lasse

Do you run a UV as well? Or just the oxydator?

 

[Lasse]

Nope - only oxydator but I have been using UVC at other places

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ThRoewer]

It is OK for me but somethings people often forget is that it is in must cases - IMO - there is not a danger with taking in things but more a danger that something in the old DT attack the newcomers. If I should run a seperate QT - I would either use the same water but with a very powerful UVC on the outgoing water from the the shared sump or if it is totally separated - during the last weeks of QT do regular WC with help of the water from the DT

Sincerely Lasse

Of course you use water and decorations from your established tank/system to set up the QT.

 

[Lasse]

Of course you use water and decorations from your established tank/system to set up the QT.

Agree with this but - IMO - its good to do WC in the end of the QT time with DT water. Not only for disease but also in order to get the same smell. IMO - it will stop much of the normal bulling that+s happens with newcomers.

Sincerely Lasse