Fish not making it through quarantine- what am I doing wrong?

  • Thread starter Thread starter mikedb
  • Start date Start date
  • Tagged users None

mikedb

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
122
Reaction score
217
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
After about a decade away from the hobby, about six months ago I finally got back in a big way- with a Reefer 650 Peninsula tank. This time I wanted to do everything right and spared no expense doing so. While the tank itself is running great with thriving SPS and LPS corals, I have been unable to get nearly any fish through quarantine and added to the tank.

My quarantine setup consists of two 10g tanks with a cobalt 50w heaters and Aquaclear 30 HOB filters with sponges seeded from the refugium of my main aquarium. Each tank has an ammonia alert badge. After significant reading on this site and others, the plan was to treat for two weeks with Copper Power at 1.75 ppm (using Hanna Checker) before a transfer to the other tank at 0ppm copper for two weeks.

Here is my experience so far:
  • March 9: Pair of ocellaris clowns added directly to the tank without quarantine. Risky I know, but at this point they were the only livestock in the tank and they were sourced directly from a local breeder
  • March 14: Pair of captive-bred radial filefish (Divers Den). Acclimated successfully to quarantine, increased copper to 1.75ppm over three days. Two weeks later, the smaller, previously healthy, good-eating filefish stopped eating and appeared lethargic one evening. He was dead by the next morning. The other filefish spend two more weeks in copper and was introduced into the DT in mid-April. He continues to thrive there.
  • April 7: Yellow watchman goby (Bluezoo). Acclimated successfully, increased copper to 1.75ppm over three days. After two weeks, transferred to another tank without copper, and is still there because...
  • April 25: McCosker's Flasher Wrasse (Bluezoo). Acclimated using the drip method (which I no longer use) per Bluezoo instructions. Didn't survive the first night.
  • April 25: Golden Midas Blenny (Bluezoo). Acclimated successfully, but due to the condition of his tankmates (in hindsight, caused by the midas blenny), I waited to start copper until he was alone. Increased copper concentration over 4 days to 1.6ppm. On the sixth day (and a total of three weeks in the tank), he suddenly stopped eating and died overnight.
  • April 26: Tri-color wrasse (Local fish store). Acclimated successfully, but noticed a bit of aggression from the midas blenny. It didn't seem problematic (no nipping or damage), until one day I came home to him being attacked by the midas blenny, and with an apparent spinal injury. He was also sent down to the YWG's quarantine tank, but his injury did not improve and I euthanized him after several days of apparent suffering.
  • April 25: Purple firefish (Bluezoo): Acclimated successfully, but after a few days I noticed some fin damage and witnessed him getting attacked by the golden midas blenny. He was quickly removed and sent to the YWG's quarantine tank, restarting the timeline for the YWG. I waited on copper due to the introduction of the wrasse, and started it several days ago, increasing to 1.75ppm over four days. Last night I found him lethargic and refusing to eat, and despite an immediate 50% water change, he was dead by morning.

As you can see, I am now up to three fish that had acclimated well and were eating fine for weeks, until suddenly refusing to eat and dying hours later. The deceased fish has no sores or apparent diseases, and their tankmates (sometimes identical) appeared completely unaffected. I am at a loss for what I did wrong. Could the copper be causing this, despite being increased slowly and never getting anywhere near toxic levels?

This episode has been really difficult for my wife and I. We are now at less than a 50% survival rate, and haven't successfully introduced a new fish to the DT in over a month (and, with the opeful exception of the YWG, will not be doing so for at least a month more). What was once an enjoyable exercise of feeding and watching the quarantine tanks is now something I dread, and my wife, a vegetarian animal lover, is quickly becoming disenfranchised with the hobby. I also struggle with the morality of taking fish from the (already stressed) ocean only to endure such dreadful outcomes.

What am I doing wrong?
 
Last edited:
You might try an observational period with no medication first and try to get new fish eating and a little fatter first before medication.

Copper can be rough on fairy wrasse you might try CP if you can get it. They seem to tolerate it better.

Half of your trouble seems to be a jerk Midas blenny.
If you can wait, I would try a non medical observation period with food, and maybe some focus bound prazi to get internal parasites flushed out. Maybe try 2 or so weeks then slowly ramp up the copper. You can always start copper sooner if you see symptoms.

Since you seem to be ordering all your fish online, another great option would be Humblefish Aquatics. He sells pre-quarantined and conditioned fish that are eating and can do right into the display. They aren't the cheapest, but they may be the least expensive.
 
CP is very rough in wrasse I advise against this. Unfortunately quarantining wrasse is just plain difficult.

Your issues in general aren’t uncommon. Biopsies of wrasse and other fish are finding that we underestimated uronema in fish internally. Spinal injury wrasse have been biopsied by @Humblefish and some had uronema wrapped around the spine. Internal infections are also common. The hard truth is that the state of the distribution system is much worse than it ever was. There’s no easy button.

Local LFS we know well say they’re struggling to keep fish long enough to sell them. We too have had issues which @HotRocks and I have documented well. It’s a catch 22 because by the time we treat for these common ailments it’s often too late. So if we just observe we lose them. If we treat them, their immune system is weak. If we throw the book at them and assume they have all the ailments (which is unfortunately not a bad assumption), then we weaken them even more but at least the fish that make it through are clean.

No fun, sorry for your struggles.
 
Last edited:
I’m going to tag @HotRocks as well for added experienced eyes...

I don’t actually use chelated copper personally... but it is supposed to be a bit more forgiving than the ionic I use.

How are you testing the copper levels? Are you using color test kits, or a Hanna checker?

My suggestion would be to slow the copper ramp up even further. I sometimes take a full week to bring mine up, especially with smaller, more sensitive fish like wrasses.

CP is another option, but I actually would say the opposite regarding using CP with fairy wrasses. I’ve done it, and had a very hard time keeping them eating for 14 days. They survived but were very thin coming out. I feel like they actually tolerated copper much better.
 
if we just observe we lose them. If we treat them, their immune system is weak. If we throw the book at them and assume they have all the ailments (which is unfortunately not a bad assumption), then we weaken them even more but at least the fish that make it through are clean.

This topic has been of interest to me of late. Fantastic description of the trade-offs. Very helpful.
 
When I got back into the hobby like you, I tried quarantining fish to “do it right.” All the fish I attempted to quarantine died. After a few fish died I stopped doing QT, since then none have died. I think the QT stressed them out too much
 
First of all, thank you all so much for your quick and detailed responses. I am humbled by the excellent responses I have received from prolific members of this community so far.

Just a few responses to some of the questions and comments that have come up so far...

You might try an observational period with no medication first and try to get new fish eating and a little fatter first before medication.

I definitely think that makes sense, and that was my plan with the latest round of fish. But even after two weeks of very good appetites and twice daily feeding, after a few days of the copper treatment they suddenly stopped eating and died. The deceased fish did not appear thin or unhealthy at all.

Even the firefish (previously attacked by the midas blenny) had fully regrown his fins before a few days of copper and a sudden death.

Since you seem to be ordering all your fish online, another great option would be Humblefish Aquatics. He sells pre-quarantined and conditioned fish that are eating and can do right into the display. They aren't the cheapest, but they may be the least expensive.

Unfortunately, I messaged humblefish a little while ago and he is no longer offering this service. While purchasing locally would be ideal, both stores are 30+ minutes away, have poor selection, and livestock that looks questionable. I would gladly pay more (even a multiple) for better or healthier livestock- at the end of the day, the cost of livestock is a rounding error on my overall investment in equipment.

No fun, sorry for your struggles.

Sage advice... I had worried that this was more of a systemic issue.

How are you testing the copper levels? Are you using color test kits, or a Hanna checker?

I use a Hanna checker, with a Salifert color test as a backup sanity check. The salifert is next to useless, but the Hanna provides logical results that are in line with the Copper Power dosage instructions and common sense.

My suggestion would be to slow the copper ramp up even further. I sometimes take a full week to bring mine up, especially with smaller, more sensitive fish like wrasses.

Thanks, good to know. My wrasse never even made it to copper treatment, but I will certainly follow that guideline for all fish in the future. At this point I am ramping over four days, so it's no great leap.

When I got back into the hobby like you, I tried quarantining fish to “do it right.” All the fish I attempted to quarantine died. After a few fish died I stopped doing QT, since then none have died. I think the QT stressed them out too much

Wow, our experiences couldn't be more similar. I am also really questioning whether quarantine is providing a net benefit. But with a relatively large tank and an end goal of adding some tangs and wrasses that are more fragile, I worry that such an approach may backfire on me in a much more spectacular fashion

As this point, I see the following ways forward:
  1. Stop quarantining fish. This worries me- assuming the losses I have experienced so far are the result of disease (not sure about this), am I not setting myself up for disaster? While stress in quarantine is likely causing these issues to manifest, over their lifetime in the display is there not a very good chance of reaching a similar level of stress, whether it be from interspecies aggression or an equipment failure?
  2. Stop medicating fish (or at least stop using copper) in quarantine. This might be the most practical option- at the end of the day I have yet to lost a fish (beyond acclimation stress) while in unmedicated quarantine.
  3. Only purchase fish from Divers Den (since they are at least slightly quarantined) in combination with #1 or #2 above. Unfortunately, some fish don't seem to come onto Divers Den, and I have still suffered 50% losses from my purchases there.
 
Last edited:
Unfortunately, I messaged humblefish a little while ago and he is no longer offering this service. While purchasing locally would be ideal, both stores are 30+ minutes away, have poor selection, and livestock that looks questionable. I would gladly pay more (even a multiple) for better or healthier livestock- at the end of the day, the cost of livestock is a rounding error on my overall investment at this point.

How long ago was a while? I know the business was derailed a few times initially... but as far as I know, he is currently up and running still? I just got a fish from him myself about a week ago, and it was a miraculous delivery on his part. I'd been having trouble getting a copperband to continue eating through QT, and he sends me one, fully quarantined, that was trained to eat frozen out of my fingers o_O

He's unmatched in his QT skills lol
 
I have a question because I really don’t know. Do we have to quarantine fish that are not sick or look sick or is it preventive maintenance? I’m asking because I do observation before I put in my display but I have the means and extra equipment to set up quarantine if I need to.
 
How long ago was a while? I know the business was derailed a few times initially... but as far as I know, he is currently up and running still? I just got a fish from him myself about a week ago, and it was a miraculous delivery on his part. I'd been having trouble getting a copperband to continue eating through QT, and he sends me one, fully quarantined, that was trained to eat frozen out of my fingers o_O

He's unmatched in his QT skills lol

I had really hoped his service was a panacea, but I messaged him last week, and here was his response (which I hope he won't mind me posting):

Hi Mike - I do sell quarantined fish (by request only), but unfortunately I will most likely be ending that service in July. And I have such a backlog of requests right now that I'm unsure if I would be able to fulfill any new ones. Sorry to let you down like this :(

I also noticed when I copied that response that the status under his avatar is 'Moved On' and that he hasn't posted in two weeks... I hope that doesn't mean anything, as I have greatly benefited from his posts here.
 
I had really hoped his service was a panacea, but I messaged him last week, and here was his response (which I hope he won't mind me posting):
I also noticed when I copied that response that the status under his avatar is 'Moved On' and that he hasn't posted in two weeks... I hope that doesn't mean anything, as I have greatly benefited from his posts here.
Ah, I didn't know that... though I did know he was no longer active publicly here (for personal reasons) That's a bummer, I am his biggest non-paid salesperson lol I was so super-happy with my fish, I've been telling everyone!
 
Following along on this one,

My DT will be ready for the first fish in a few weeks, and have been reading a lot on quarantine and was wondering how difficult it was on the fish in QT.

Makes me really wonder what is best for the fish themselves, as it does seem like intense quarantine procedures could be causing some stress and weakening of fish accidentally.
 
Another option for pre quarantined is Elliot over at Marine Collectors. He specializes in higher end stuff. I got a quoyi parrotfish that about eats out of my hand.
I would also encourage feeding of fresh and frozen foods over pellets and flake. I subscribe to paulb's philosophy of beefing up a fishes immune system through diet and i feed a mix of reef frenzy, fish frenzy, herbivore frenzy, fertility frenzy, clams, live blackworms and mahi roe. I get an occasional infection but it generally disappears in a couple of days max.
 
I have a question because I really don’t know. Do we have to quarantine fish that are not sick or look sick or is it preventive maintenance? I’m asking because I do observation before I put in my display but I have the means and extra equipment to set up quarantine if I need to.
You're asking a perfectly logical, but hotly debated question... lol. In the parlance of the hobby, it sounds like you are quarantining your fish in an observation tank.
As I understand it... very limited understanding :p... there is no "have to" standard yet, but there's a robust debate about "should you." You can see some of that above. If you check out the articles section, some of the most experienced peeps on the forum lay out excellent cases for various popular approaches.
 
You're asking a perfectly logical, but hotly debated question... lol. In the parlance of the hobby, it sounds like you are quarantining your fish in an observation tank.
As I understand it... very limited understanding :p... there is no "have to" standard yet, but there's a robust debate about "should you." You can see some of that above. If you check out the articles section, some of the most experienced peeps on the forum lay out excellent cases for various popular approaches.
I don’t use any meds I just make sure the eat well. Is that still quarantine.
 
I don’t use any meds I just make sure the eat well. Is that still quarantine.

Yes, in the strictest sense, that is a quarantine tank, since new arrivals are kept separate from the display.
 
I don’t use any meds I just make sure the eat well. Is that still quarantine.

Yes, that's a type of quarantine. Keeping new fish (or corals) in a separate system is the textbook definition of QT.
I'm out of my depth on this one, but that's an approach a lot of people use. Tank Transfer Method, Observational QT, Prophylactic QT, Immune System.. there are others. All things you could search for on this site or others to get an idea of your options.
 
Yes, that's a type of quarantine. Keeping new fish (or corals) in a separate system is the textbook definition of QT.
I'm out of my depth on this one, but that's an approach a lot of people use. Tank Transfer Method, Observational QT, Prophylactic QT, Immune System.. there are others. All things you could search for on this site or others to get an idea of your options.
Ok cool glad to know
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
Back
Top