Fish rubbing & white blotchy patches

rs1831 · Mar 12, 2016

Hello everyone,

This is an amazing thread full of useful information that I wish I would have taken into consideration before setting up my display tank. That being said, he is what I've been facing over the last 3 or so weeks.

I've had my tank set up for just over a year and things seemed fine. About 3 weeks ago I noticed that a orange spotted rabbit fish was getting aggressive and I thought that an anthesis had gotten pricked so I got the rabbitfish out but the anthesis continued to go down hill. He looked like he had white blotchy patches on him and after a few days he died. A few days later a chromis seemed highly stressed and died. A few days went by and things seemed fine and then I noticed a kole tang rubbing against rocks and looked dull and whitish. He died last night. None of the other fish seem to look white and blotchy but a wrasse has been rubbing against the sand. After reading through this thread, it would seem that if it was velvet that it would have progressed faster than this. What does it sound like? I am going to be setting up a quarantine tank tomorrow and would like direction on how to treat my remaining fish. I have a chromis, a anthesis, 2 clownfish, a yellow tang, starblenny, goby, yellow coris wrasse, and a melanurus wrasse.

Thank you in advance!

Roland

Humblefish · Mar 13, 2016

@rs1831 Velvet has a very fast life cycle. Typically it shows up 1-2 weeks after an infected fish is added or if a tomont hitchhikes in on a coral/invert. However, in some rare cases it may take up to one full month for symptoms of velvet to surface IF the infected fish was exposed to a sub-therapeutic level of copper just before you got him. This can suppress symptoms of velvet for awhile, but does not eradicate it, and during this time symptoms of the disease may be masked on the infected specimen. However, during this time "Patient Zero" is still capable of transmitting the disease so your other fish may show symptoms before he ever does.

So, when was the last time you added any livestock to your DT? Fish, coral, invert?

rs1831 · Mar 13, 2016

To be honest, it is hard to tell. I get corals pretty often. The only fish was added after I lost the anthesis.

Humblefish · Mar 13, 2016

rs1831 said:
The only fish was added after I lost the anthesis.

How long ago was the last fish added? Couple of weeks ago? 1 month ago? 2 months?

rs1831 · Mar 13, 2016

Humblefish said:
How long ago was the last fish added? Couple of weeks ago? 1 month ago? 2 months?

4 weeks.

Humblefish · Mar 13, 2016

rs1831 said:
4 weeks.

That timeline would make velvet pretty unlikely, unless it hitchhiked in on a coral frag. Any more fish losses?

rs1831 · Mar 13, 2016

Humblefish said:
That timeline would make velvet pretty unlikely, unless it hitchhiked in on a coral frag. Any more fish losses?

No. The rest of the fish seem fine and are eating well. Should I observe them and react if another fish show signs or should I plan on taking them all out and treating them? I'm at a loss at this point on how to proceed.

Humblefish · Mar 13, 2016

rs1831 said:
No. The rest of the fish seem fine and are eating well. Should I observe them and react if another fish show signs or should I plan on taking them all out and treating them? I'm at a loss at this point on how to proceed.

If you have multiple fish rubbing on the sand, you either have a worm or parasite in your tank. The "white blotchy patches" could have been a secondary bacterial infection or possibly, Brooklynella. This problem isn't going to just go away on its own; it will likely continue to come & go as you add new fish.

I personally would QT all remaining fish and go fallow in the DT for 76 days. So you can get a "clean slate" in there. Since you don't know exactly what disease to treat for, run this prophylactic treatment regimen:

One fish (with rubbing symptoms) gets a 5 min FW dip to check for flukes.
All fish get either a (preferred) acriflavine bath or formalin bath before entering the QT. This will eliminate brook from the equation, and provide temporary relief for velvet.
All fish get treated with copper for 30 days to eradicate ich/velvet.

If you wish to proceed with this regimen, let me know and I can provide more specific details.

rs1831 · Mar 14, 2016

Humblefish said:
If you have multiple fish rubbing on the sand, you either have a worm or parasite in your tank. The "white blotchy patches" could have been a secondary bacterial infection or possibly, Brooklynella. This problem isn't going to just go away on its own; it will likely continue to come & go as you add new fish.

I personally would QT all remaining fish and go fallow in the DT for 76 days. So you can get a "clean slate" in there. Since you don't know exactly what disease to treat for, run this prophylactic treatment regimen:

One fish (with rubbing symptoms) gets a 5 min FW dip to check for flukes.

All fish get either a (preferred) acriflavine bath or formalin bath before entering the QT. This will eliminate brook from the equation, and provide temporary relief for velvet.

All fish get treated with copper for 30 days to eradicate ich/velvet.

If you wish to proceed with this regimen, let me know and I can provide more specific details.

Yes, I would like to move forward with quarantining. If there is no further visible signs should I let the filter sit in the sump for an extended period of time to develop bacteria or should I start as soon as possible? Should I also administer prazipro?

Thanks!

Humblefish · Mar 14, 2016

rs1831 said:
Yes, I would like to move forward with quarantining. If there is no further visible signs should I let the filter sit in the sump for an extended period of time to develop bacteria or should I start as soon as possible? Should I also administer prazipro?

I wouldn't administer Prazipro unless you see flukes during the FW dip (see below). I would probably start "sterile" in the QT due to this somewhat being a mystery disease. No cross contamination from the DT. When you setup your QT, use one of those "bacteria in a bottle" products (exs. Bio-Spira, Seachem Stability or Dr Tim's Nitrifying Bacteria) to seed your filter.

Freshwater Dip: Provides temporary relief for Brooklynella, Flukes, Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly even Ich & Uronema marinum (both unproven). Can be used to confirm the presence of Flukes.

How To Treat - Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt a little tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.

Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also, tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes. Multiple dips may be done, but it’s important to give your fish a day to recuperate in-between dips.

For flukes, use a dark (preferably black) bucket so you can see if tiny white worms fall out of the fish (especially out of the gills) at around the 3-4 minute mark. The worms will settle to the bottom, so you can use a flashlight to look for them there as well.

Pros - Provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases in a chemical free environment. Can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.

Cons/Side Effects - Not a permanent “fix” for any disease, as FW dips are not potent enough to eradicate all of the parasites/worms afflicting the fish. Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal”.

Humblefish · Mar 14, 2016

Below is how you do the chemical bath, including a list of products that contain acriflavine & formalin. Use one OR the other:

Acriflavine (preferred) - Do the bath for 75-90 minutes, but remove the fish immediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain acriflavine: Acriflavine-MS and Ruby Reef Rally. DO NOT mix acriflavine with any other chemicals.
Formalin - Do the bath for 30-60 minutes max, but remove the fish immediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain formalin: Formalin-MS, Quick Cure, Aquarium Solutions Ich-X, Kordon Rid-Ich Plus. Use protection (rubber gloves, face mask, eye protection, etc.) whenever handling formalin as it is a known carcinogen! However, you can add Methylene Blue to the formalin bath (1 capful per 2-3 gallons of bath water.)

Humblefish · Mar 14, 2016

Following the FW dip & chemical bath, below is how you use copper. I need to add in another product called Copper Power you can use; Like Coppersafe, use a “total copper test kit” such as API’s to measure Copper Power. Therapeutic level is 2.5 mg/L or ppm for Copper Power.

Copper: Treats Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans), Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly Uronema marinum

How To Treat - First, it is important to know what kind of copper you are using. Cupramine is fully charged (ionic) copper, and has a therapeutic range of 0.35-0.5 mg/L or ppm. You would use a Seachem or Salifert copper test kit for Cupramine, as those are capable of reading copper in the low range. Coppersafe, on the other hand, is chelated copper. It has a much higher therapeutic range of 1.5-2.0 mg/L or ppm. As such, you need a “total copper test kit” such as API’s to measure Coppersafe.

Standard copper treatment lasts 30 consecutive days. The reason it takes so long is copper only targets the “free swimming stage” (the same holds true for all chemical treatments & hypo). While 7-14 days is the “norm” to reach this stage, certain strains of ich have prolonged life cycles. Indeed, even 30 days may not be long enough in some rare cases. This is why it is so important to observe after treatment ends, to ensure symptoms do not return.

Therapeutic copper levels must be maintained at all times during the 30 days, so testing often is important. If the level drops even slightly out of range, then the 30 day clock starts all over again. One reason your copper level may drop unexpectedly is if you are treating in a tank with rock and substrate; those should not be used in the presence of copper due to absorption. Conversely, if you exceed the therapeutic range you risk killing the fish.

Copper is a poison, pure and simple. It only works because most fish are able to withstand being in it longer than the parasites. Knowing this, it is wise to raise your copper level very slowly (over 3-5 days) instead of the usual 24-48 hours recommended on the labels. Doing so increases your odds of successfully treating a “copper sensitive” fish. Remove copper after 30 days by running activated carbon.

Pros - Readily available

Cons/Side Effects - Appetite suppression is a common side effect. If a fish stops eating, don’t add more copper until he resumes. If the fish is still not eating after 2-3 days, start doing water changes (lowering the copper concentration) until he eats. If this happens a second time after you resume raising the copper, you’ll know you’ve encountered a “copper sensitive” fish and an alternative treatment should be used instead. Some species of fish, such as angels, puffers, lions and mandarins are notoriously difficult to treat with copper.

Tautog · Mar 14, 2016

Hey Humble, I'm calling you! Great Thread! Finally I website with great info.
BUT, in my experience as a fisherman, chemist, diver, if fish after fish are dying, isn't whatever is killing them transferring to a live host almost immediately? Unless it's a O2 loss, or bad water?

I don't know a thing, and I ain't learned yet

Humblefish · Mar 14, 2016

Tautog said:
BUT, in my experience as a fisherman, chemist, diver, if fish after fish are dying, isn't whatever is killing them transferring to a live host almost immediately?

Brook & uronema both do. However, velvet has such a fast life cycle that it can bombard a fish almost without interruption. So can ich if the infestation is heavy or multiple stains are present in an aquarium.

Tautog said:
Unless it's a O2 loss, or bad water?

Two symptoms exhibited: multiple fish rubbing and "white blotchy patches" makes an environmental factor the unlikely culprit here.

rs1831 · Mar 14, 2016

Humblefish,

Thank you for your help! I'll keep this thread updated with any results that I see as the treatment progresses.

Best,
Roland

rs1831 · Mar 17, 2016

Humblefish,

One last question, hopefully. When you say to aerate the water heavily, would you use a powerhead or an airstone?

Thanks!

Humblefish · Mar 17, 2016

rs1831 said:
When you say to aerate the water heavily, would you use a powerhead or an airstone?

In a QT, I would point a powerhead or two towards the surface of the water. Unless it's a small QT and the flow of a powerhead would blow the fish all around.

When doing a bath I use an airstone cranked all the way up for reasons mentioned above (confines of a small bucket).

rs1831 · Mar 17, 2016

Humblefish said:
In a QT, I would point a powerhead or two towards the surface of the water.

However, when doing a bath I use an airstone cranked all the way up as most fish cannot handle the flow of a powerhead in a small bucket.

Thanks!