Fishless cycle.

[Dave3112]

Are you still adding ammonia? If I would stop. The nitrites will climb, or they should, and stay high for about 2-4 weeks then the nitrates will climb to consume the nitrites. If you are still adding ammonia then you are making the cycle restart each time and prolonging it. If you aren't then I'm misunderstanding you and don't know why you would keep spiking ammonia and nitrites.

 

[Palting]

My nitrate are holding at 150+PPM. Way off the charts.
The ammonia stays at 0PPM for a while then climbs slightly.
The nitrites has reached 0PPM twice, then I added ammonia and get it to 4 or 5 PPM and the nitrites hit .25 or .50 for a day or so then hit 3-5 PPM.
When I added ammonia I check ever 60 minutes until it's between 3-5 and then I stop.

After I get it to that point I want 24 hours (give or take 30 minutes for work scheduler) and test again.

Alright, Robb, this is what I think is going on.

You already do have a full spectrum of bacteria. This, essentially, is the meaning of "cycled". Your tank is, indeed, cycled. However, you keep having multiple cycles because you keep dosing ammonia. In a living ecosystem, ammonia is produced at a relatively constant pace, and the bacteria are able to break it down just as quickly as it is produced. Hence, a zero reading. In your case, however, you keep adding ammonia in bolus doses. In a living reef tank, this would be like a fish died, decomposed and produced a large bioload of ammonia. Since the ammonia load is too much for the stable amount of bacteria, you get an ammonia spike, followed by a nitrite spike. You can't detect the nitrate spike because the level is so way out there.

Stop dosing ammonia. Wait for the ammonia and nitrite levels to go down to 0. Once they are down to 0, do a large water change to get that nitrate level down. Do it a few times until it is down to something less than 50. maybe even less than 20. Nitrate over 50 can be somewhat toxic to some fish, at the least, very stressful, so you want to get it below that.

Once you get 0 ammonia and nitrites, nitrates below 50 preferably below 20, add a fish and some CUC. They will NOT die, trust me. Feed minimally, and observe your livestock. What this will do is provide a stable and relatively constant small dose of ammonia from the fish poop, CUC poop, and decaying uneaten food. Give it a few weeks for everything to stabilize, do water changes to keep the nitrates down. Then a few weeks later, add another fish, feed a little more. and so on. In a mtter of several months, you'll have a thriving marine ecosystem. Check out my homepage by clicking on my avatar, if you don't believe me

 

[RiverRat]

My nitrate are holding at 150+PPM. Way off the charts.

The Nitrates are not going to go down. You need to remove nitrates through water changes and the introduction of macroalgae. The ammonia and nitrites are going up after you introduce ammonia again and again. The bacteria are converting the ammonia into nitrite. Another bacteria is then converting the nitrite into nitrate. Bacteria are not converting nitrate into anything in you tank, which is why you must remove it. I apologize if I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

 

[Palting]

One more thing to add. There ARE bacteria that break down nitrates to plain nitrogen gas that stays dissolved in the water, IF you set up your tank right. These are the anaerobic denitrifying bacteria found within the pores of your liverock. That's why it is so important to get the correct calcareous porous rock for a reef tank, and get them in the right amount, and with the right flow around and through them. However, these anaerobic bacteria are slow and difficult to propagate, slow to grow, compared to the aerobic bacteria. That's why water changes are so important in the first few months of a young tank, possibly forever. Some mature tanks never need water changes, but most tanks require routine water changes as a form of nitrate export. Other forms include the previously mentioned macroalgae, alage turf scrubbers, biopellets....just to name a few. However, it's a little early for your tank to be doing these. Just do water changes when the ammonia and nitrite get to 0, and let the tank stabilize for now.

 

[robbrouse]

Alright sounds good... I will stop the ammonia and when levels hit zero start the water change process to get the nitrates down... Then added the 4 fish and clean up crew from my 56 slowly.

Would it hurt anything if I started the water change process now?

The fish I have are a pare of clowns, a fire first and a watchman goby...

the clean up crew is a cleaner cleaner shrimp, a few crabs and several snails.

 

[robbrouse]

Not sure if I brought up the fact I will be transfer everything from the smaller tank to the larger tank, Will take some of the rock as well. The hardest parts is the lights. I replaced my t5HO lights with Kessels and will be moving the skimmer and the lights to the new tank.. I do not have an extra skimmer, but do have the old lights that can go on the old tank. When I move the kessels over.

 

[robbrouse]

I have 2 rocks with mushrooms as well that will need to be moved.

 

[Palting]

There will alwys be some die off when you transfer liverock. Plus, you'll be removing biofiltration from your old tank when you move the rock, so you may be forced to transfer all your fish together. 4 fish together to a new tank is a large biolad as well. OTOH, you've been dosing so much ammonia, your tank may be able to handle it.

Mushrooms are quite hardy. They may pout a little, but they should be fine.

Can't help you with the lights. I'm not an LED fan, at least not yet.

 

[robbrouse]

I know. Going to be tricky. I'm letting my levels drop and then will be doing sever water changed to get my nitrate down. Then will be doing the transfer and be watching the tank for spikes. Ready to do water changes and all. Might from some Bio-Spira[FONT=Arial, Helvetica] when I do the move to help keep levels down.

I do have another question. Will the tank be fine with out an ammonia source while I do my water changes to get he nitrates down? The way the rock is set up I can only do about a third the tank with out exposing the rocks to air and I figure I don't want that to happen right?[/FONT]

 

[Palting]

You'll get differing answers to your question. IMO, when your ammonia is 0 but your nitrates are still sky high, I would ghost feed the tank small amounts of fish food. Just pretend you already have your first fish in the tank, and pretend to feed them minimally. The difference here with what you've been doing with the ammonia dosing is that you shouldn't see an ammonia spike. Your nitrifying bacteria population should be able to handle the ammonia as quickly as its produced from the decaying fish food, and you'll get a consistent 0 ammonia reading but have a healthy population of bacteria sufficient to support your fish when you do introduce them.

 

[robbrouse]

Sounds like a good plan.

I did a 35 (or so) gallon water changed waited 45 minutes and tester for Nitrate again and the are at 80. I'm making more RO/DI water now and them I will mix salt and do another one tomorrow.. If my match is right 2 more water changed and I would be set....

 

[bigblue]

Kudos to Palting, he summed up your situation pretty well. Cycling - as far as aquarists are concerned - only refers to the presence of different strains of bacteria (and enzymes to start breaking down organic matter) that perform the following through oxidation: ammonification, nitrification and denitrification. I have concerns with large water change, though. I like to think of an aquarium as an ecosystem and as such, there is the issue of creating some kind of unbalance when you change that much water. Getting anaerobic bacteria that convert nitrate into inert nitrogen gas is more tricky though. Microalgae might help, but what worked well for me was to add a bacterial supplement that contains anaerobic bacteria. It's efficient and has saved me plenty of maintenance time and costs.

 

[robbrouse]

Well the transfer is 2 weeks old this Sunday and so far the only think that was lost was one snail. Water Levels are good. Thanks for all the help.