fishless sps
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Most people that had success with no fish I knew used oyster feast but I would bet there are other very useful substitutes. Honestly with all of this feeding your tank type stuff going on I am very suprised papone has not been brought up or tried. This was probably the best way to feed a tank I have ever seen and the only one to show true results in coral growth over a number of tanks that turned out spectacular. Although most in the us probably won’t be able to make the mixture with hgh, it still showed good results in many tanks without it.
naterealbig
pea brain
Wow been forever since I heard Pappone.... Probably one of the best mixes ever. Might incorporate this into my new system.... 300 BB SPS w lots of fish.
naterealbig
pea brain
FWIW
Thread on RC: pappone and BLU Coral method
Post by : DarkXerox
"Here is the recipe for pappone:
“Pappone†Recipe – Italian Coral Food (Updated 1/14/2007)
Materials:
5 Oysters
5 Mussels
5 Clams
5 Shrimp (NOT cocktail shrimp, the big scampi type w/o the head and the shell)
1 Tablespoon of Sugar (not corn syrup, etc.)
200 mL of RO/DI water
10 g of Red Algae (Palmaria palmata; Bisck uses Julian Sprung's brand)
and/or 10 g of Spirulina, 10 g of Nori (spirulina is what Bisck prefers)
Methods: Make SURE that all ingredients are the freshest possible and DO NOT use frozen foods (unless it is impossible for you). Make sure everything "live" is rinsed and cleaned before putting it into the blender. Put all the ingredients into the blender and blend for 5 min, wait 2 min for it to cool, 5 more min blending, 2 min of waiting again, then finally another 5 min of blending (the pausing is so that the solution doesn't get too hot and "cook" from the heat of the blender/blades). Pour into cube forms (approx 10 mL each). Then freeze it all—you want to minimize how long everything is at room temperature.
Procedure: One hour prior to turning off your lights, you have the option of adding Amino acids to the tank*. (For example, 11pm Halides off, add AA’s, 12am, actinics off, then add pappone). Take off the cup of your skimmer, but leave the skimmer running (so you don’t have a massive drop in O2 levels overnight). After the lights are off, start with only a ¼ of a cube per WEEK for every 400 L of tank water (approx 100 gallons). Be sure to measure NO3 and PO4 the next morning so that these parameters don't spike after feeding. You can reduce the amount fed if you are having nutrient problems. Also don’t forget to put the skimmer cup back on the next morning before the lights go back on.
*If everything is going well. It is good to wait and see how the tank is doing for awhile before trying this. The whole point here is that you don't want to change anything too fast, because nothing good happens quickly in this hobby. (Another method to grind up amino acid pills in the next batch of food; however Bisck found that it sometimes causes diatom outbreaks in his tank).
And an article about the BC method by SiR:
The Blu Coral Method
Many people have the opportunity to see the magnificent tanks managed with this method and many others are interested in learning about it. The creator of this method was Maurizio Manili, who thanks to the collaboration with other passionate reefers, succeeded to bring the method to its current point. Today, the BC method was inherited from Valerio Pacetti, the owner of the actual Blu Coral shop in Rome, and ex-associate of Maurizio Manili, who as of now improved the old consolidated method with a few modifications. This article will talk about how the method functions and how to succeed in augmenting the growth of corals. First two big distinctions must be made: if you want to manage a tank by utilizing the simple “pappone†(coral food) or if you want to follow the BC method exactly to the letter. The base of both systems of management is the same and involves: the classic Berlin Method, good water chemistry, and the pappone feedings.
Classic Berlin Method:
The Berlin Method is characterized by strong lighting, strong water movement, an efficient skimmer, and live rock.
Water Chemistry:
You must give particular attention to this aspect, which leads to positive results for all types of management of the BC method. In particular, the parameters of the water are maintained in concentrations that are elevated in respect to parameters that are successful in nature: Magnesium 1500 mg/L, Calcium 500 mg/L, Strontium 16-30 mg/L, Carbonate Hardness (dkH) 12-14 mg/L, Iodine 0.06 mg/L, and nutrients near zero. This allows the corals at any moment to have the necessary materials for constructing their skeletons and therefore they have a sort of “reserve†of chemical elements.
Pappone:
This is the difference that determines the distinction between who follows the method to the letter or instead who utilizes only some parts. However in general, the pappone is identical in both of the methods, and is prepared in this way: you use mollusks that are strictly fresh. In general, you use 5 mussels, 5 clams, 5 shrimp, and 5 oysters. You put all of these into a container (no shells, just meat), then add 250 mL of RO water, then add 1 tablespoon of sugar, however some also use fructose. Then you blend everything vigorously until the whole mixture reaches the consistency of cream. At this point is the distinction between who uses the method to the letter and who instead does not. In the BC method, the pappone is enriched in respect to the original recipe, with the polypeptide hormone somatropin or GH. In general, you use about 1.33 mg of somatropin, which corresponds to the 4 unit vial. You then mix and prepare the cubes, then put them away in the freezer.
GH, what is it?
GH or Somatropin, is a human polypeptide of small dimensions, that presents a noticeably different structure in different species. It is therefore derived with an elevated biological specificity, in the sense that the GH from one species is in general completely different and therefore inactive in others; in the case of humans, the only one that has any effect is from simian GH (mainly in Rhesus monkeys). Vice-versa, human GH acts only in simians and not in non-primate organisms. The sequence of 191 amino acids is in a linear chain that carries out two fundamentally important actions in humans: the growth of the body, and the regulation of cellular metabolism, specifically that of protein synthesis. To summarize, GH does not act on other mammals, and obviously does not act on invertebrates. This is simply demonstrated by the fact that the hormone in question, in order to be utilized, requires specific receptors on the cellular membrane of the target cell on which it acts. Obviously the corals and other invertebrates do not have these correct receptors, because if they did have them, it would mean that they use GH in the same manner-- an improbable phenomenon.
The Enhanced Growth…
How are you then able to explain the enhanced growth and the increase in metabolism of the corals in conjunction with the increase in calcification?
In experience, this does happen. A few of the more skilled aquarists who utilize this method, had growth of A. Formosa, A. cervicornis, A. nobilis, Montipora sp. , up to 40cm per year. Also M. foliosa, LPS, and soft corals grew in an impressive manner.
I made up my mind about what could be happening in the water. Therefore the precise but short explanation will be following the fruits of my labor and my observations; however that does not mean that is it is the absolute truth. The explanation will be sought for in the typical structural and molecular characteristics of the GH. Being a protein that is small enough, it is very probable that the GH put in the pappone breaks up. This is the point of the discussion. It is not the integral GH that acts directly on the corals, because of the points explained above are very improbable. It likely is based on the GH being broken, which influences the growth and the increased metabolism.
At the time in which we go to feed our corals with pappone, we are in reality adding many amino acids into the water. In fact, when the protein is broken, it is split into many pieces—its amino acid constituents. Therefore the abundance of determined and specified amino acids are involved the increased rate of growth.
This is the only explanation which arose after many different observations. In this way it is effectively possible to explain, from a biological point of view, how the GH is able to influence the corals.
These amino acids that are introduced with the GH are combined with the amino acids that are usually dosed around 2 hours before the pappone feeding, in order to encourage assimilation.
The rest of the components of the pappone (mussels, clams, etc.) go to feed the bacterial cultures, the sponges, and all of the benthic organisms, which thus go to feed the corals. If you succeed in having a situation where you maximize the feeding corals, you then have the possibility of having maximum calcification, seeing that you have an abundance of nutrition and chemical components. This whole discussion obviously does not regard the fish, which are not influenced by the abundance or lack of amino acids present in water; in effect the fish have absolutely normal rates of growth.
In general, one of the aspects that characterize the Blu Coral Method is that after the system stabilizes, you have a reduction of general nutrients that remains near zero, in regards to the phosphates and the nitrates. The whole system helps the intake of amino acids. It is especially important at the beginning for everyone to find the appropriate dose of pappone to administer to the tank. A fundamental rule is to watch your animals and understand how much feeding they need.
I hope to have clarified this subject a little more, because between all methods, this is one of the best methods of managing a reef tank, whether you utilize the GH, or if you take the basics of this method without using the hormone. Good wishes to all the readers of the Magazine and see you soon!
The author of the article, the aquarists mentioned in this article, and reefitalia.net are not responsible for inappropriate use of the hormone; from a legal standpoint, by the use of whoever decides to proceed. We are also not responsible for any negative outcomes to your tank or animals.
Fabio Oggiano aka SiR
(Translated by DarkXerox)
Copyright 2007 ReefItalia.net
Original Text and Article:And an article about the BC method by SiR:
Thread on RC: pappone and BLU Coral method
Post by : DarkXerox
"Here is the recipe for pappone:
“Pappone†Recipe – Italian Coral Food (Updated 1/14/2007)
Materials:
5 Oysters
5 Mussels
5 Clams
5 Shrimp (NOT cocktail shrimp, the big scampi type w/o the head and the shell)
1 Tablespoon of Sugar (not corn syrup, etc.)
200 mL of RO/DI water
10 g of Red Algae (Palmaria palmata; Bisck uses Julian Sprung's brand)
and/or 10 g of Spirulina, 10 g of Nori (spirulina is what Bisck prefers)
Methods: Make SURE that all ingredients are the freshest possible and DO NOT use frozen foods (unless it is impossible for you). Make sure everything "live" is rinsed and cleaned before putting it into the blender. Put all the ingredients into the blender and blend for 5 min, wait 2 min for it to cool, 5 more min blending, 2 min of waiting again, then finally another 5 min of blending (the pausing is so that the solution doesn't get too hot and "cook" from the heat of the blender/blades). Pour into cube forms (approx 10 mL each). Then freeze it all—you want to minimize how long everything is at room temperature.
Procedure: One hour prior to turning off your lights, you have the option of adding Amino acids to the tank*. (For example, 11pm Halides off, add AA’s, 12am, actinics off, then add pappone). Take off the cup of your skimmer, but leave the skimmer running (so you don’t have a massive drop in O2 levels overnight). After the lights are off, start with only a ¼ of a cube per WEEK for every 400 L of tank water (approx 100 gallons). Be sure to measure NO3 and PO4 the next morning so that these parameters don't spike after feeding. You can reduce the amount fed if you are having nutrient problems. Also don’t forget to put the skimmer cup back on the next morning before the lights go back on.
*If everything is going well. It is good to wait and see how the tank is doing for awhile before trying this. The whole point here is that you don't want to change anything too fast, because nothing good happens quickly in this hobby. (Another method to grind up amino acid pills in the next batch of food; however Bisck found that it sometimes causes diatom outbreaks in his tank).
And an article about the BC method by SiR:
The Blu Coral Method
Many people have the opportunity to see the magnificent tanks managed with this method and many others are interested in learning about it. The creator of this method was Maurizio Manili, who thanks to the collaboration with other passionate reefers, succeeded to bring the method to its current point. Today, the BC method was inherited from Valerio Pacetti, the owner of the actual Blu Coral shop in Rome, and ex-associate of Maurizio Manili, who as of now improved the old consolidated method with a few modifications. This article will talk about how the method functions and how to succeed in augmenting the growth of corals. First two big distinctions must be made: if you want to manage a tank by utilizing the simple “pappone†(coral food) or if you want to follow the BC method exactly to the letter. The base of both systems of management is the same and involves: the classic Berlin Method, good water chemistry, and the pappone feedings.
Classic Berlin Method:
The Berlin Method is characterized by strong lighting, strong water movement, an efficient skimmer, and live rock.
Water Chemistry:
You must give particular attention to this aspect, which leads to positive results for all types of management of the BC method. In particular, the parameters of the water are maintained in concentrations that are elevated in respect to parameters that are successful in nature: Magnesium 1500 mg/L, Calcium 500 mg/L, Strontium 16-30 mg/L, Carbonate Hardness (dkH) 12-14 mg/L, Iodine 0.06 mg/L, and nutrients near zero. This allows the corals at any moment to have the necessary materials for constructing their skeletons and therefore they have a sort of “reserve†of chemical elements.
Pappone:
This is the difference that determines the distinction between who follows the method to the letter or instead who utilizes only some parts. However in general, the pappone is identical in both of the methods, and is prepared in this way: you use mollusks that are strictly fresh. In general, you use 5 mussels, 5 clams, 5 shrimp, and 5 oysters. You put all of these into a container (no shells, just meat), then add 250 mL of RO water, then add 1 tablespoon of sugar, however some also use fructose. Then you blend everything vigorously until the whole mixture reaches the consistency of cream. At this point is the distinction between who uses the method to the letter and who instead does not. In the BC method, the pappone is enriched in respect to the original recipe, with the polypeptide hormone somatropin or GH. In general, you use about 1.33 mg of somatropin, which corresponds to the 4 unit vial. You then mix and prepare the cubes, then put them away in the freezer.
GH, what is it?
GH or Somatropin, is a human polypeptide of small dimensions, that presents a noticeably different structure in different species. It is therefore derived with an elevated biological specificity, in the sense that the GH from one species is in general completely different and therefore inactive in others; in the case of humans, the only one that has any effect is from simian GH (mainly in Rhesus monkeys). Vice-versa, human GH acts only in simians and not in non-primate organisms. The sequence of 191 amino acids is in a linear chain that carries out two fundamentally important actions in humans: the growth of the body, and the regulation of cellular metabolism, specifically that of protein synthesis. To summarize, GH does not act on other mammals, and obviously does not act on invertebrates. This is simply demonstrated by the fact that the hormone in question, in order to be utilized, requires specific receptors on the cellular membrane of the target cell on which it acts. Obviously the corals and other invertebrates do not have these correct receptors, because if they did have them, it would mean that they use GH in the same manner-- an improbable phenomenon.
The Enhanced Growth…
How are you then able to explain the enhanced growth and the increase in metabolism of the corals in conjunction with the increase in calcification?
In experience, this does happen. A few of the more skilled aquarists who utilize this method, had growth of A. Formosa, A. cervicornis, A. nobilis, Montipora sp. , up to 40cm per year. Also M. foliosa, LPS, and soft corals grew in an impressive manner.
I made up my mind about what could be happening in the water. Therefore the precise but short explanation will be following the fruits of my labor and my observations; however that does not mean that is it is the absolute truth. The explanation will be sought for in the typical structural and molecular characteristics of the GH. Being a protein that is small enough, it is very probable that the GH put in the pappone breaks up. This is the point of the discussion. It is not the integral GH that acts directly on the corals, because of the points explained above are very improbable. It likely is based on the GH being broken, which influences the growth and the increased metabolism.
At the time in which we go to feed our corals with pappone, we are in reality adding many amino acids into the water. In fact, when the protein is broken, it is split into many pieces—its amino acid constituents. Therefore the abundance of determined and specified amino acids are involved the increased rate of growth.
This is the only explanation which arose after many different observations. In this way it is effectively possible to explain, from a biological point of view, how the GH is able to influence the corals.
These amino acids that are introduced with the GH are combined with the amino acids that are usually dosed around 2 hours before the pappone feeding, in order to encourage assimilation.
The rest of the components of the pappone (mussels, clams, etc.) go to feed the bacterial cultures, the sponges, and all of the benthic organisms, which thus go to feed the corals. If you succeed in having a situation where you maximize the feeding corals, you then have the possibility of having maximum calcification, seeing that you have an abundance of nutrition and chemical components. This whole discussion obviously does not regard the fish, which are not influenced by the abundance or lack of amino acids present in water; in effect the fish have absolutely normal rates of growth.
In general, one of the aspects that characterize the Blu Coral Method is that after the system stabilizes, you have a reduction of general nutrients that remains near zero, in regards to the phosphates and the nitrates. The whole system helps the intake of amino acids. It is especially important at the beginning for everyone to find the appropriate dose of pappone to administer to the tank. A fundamental rule is to watch your animals and understand how much feeding they need.
I hope to have clarified this subject a little more, because between all methods, this is one of the best methods of managing a reef tank, whether you utilize the GH, or if you take the basics of this method without using the hormone. Good wishes to all the readers of the Magazine and see you soon!
The author of the article, the aquarists mentioned in this article, and reefitalia.net are not responsible for inappropriate use of the hormone; from a legal standpoint, by the use of whoever decides to proceed. We are also not responsible for any negative outcomes to your tank or animals.
Fabio Oggiano aka SiR
(Translated by DarkXerox)
Copyright 2007 ReefItalia.net
Original Text and Article:And an article about the BC method by SiR:
Last edited:
I have a little 3 gallon qt tank that I set up a couple weeks ago that’s been keeping sps alive since day 5. Just a turbo snail and a couple drops of ammonia every couple days and the sps have been fine.
blasterman
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Oyster Feast and other high protein based suppliments just decompose and produce nitrate, which results in the improvemments (if any) you see with them with ULN SPS systems. A cube of brine shrimp tossed in the tank accomplishes the same task for a lot cheaper.....but it doesn't come in a cool bottle with fancy marketing and unsubstantiated claims and that seems to be the most important part for some people.
OP
OP
tvan
Active Member
@Chaswood79 Do you dose ammonia for bacteria? @blasterman I wonder if the decomposition of food(ammonia) help the bacteria around coral? The pappone recipe above would generate ammonia. Could fish pee be a vital component in reefkeeping?
I would tend to agree with you. The reason most people I have seen use it probably marketing more than anything, there are many ways to accomplish what oysterfeast does. I wouldn’t guess that acropora use much of it if any. More a supplement for life in the tank in general.
Naterealbig, thank you for posting the info on the blu coral method. I have some that’s been in my fridge for years and have been contemplating on using small amounts but never felt like I needed it. People should look up the old pics of the giant staghorn and other coral colonies grown with this method. Most used the hgh, though some didn’t and still had some huge corals. Man times have changed.....
I’ma tempermental coral
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@blasterman not to disagree with you but....
Edited to change link to direct research paper without adds.
Last edited:
Great question. I have posed the same question in other threads. Somewhere in this 38 pages I asked for pics of a successful SPS tank without fish but got no hits.
It would seem like a lot of work to replicate the nutritional environment without fish waste and respiration. But I guess if you try hard enough...
It would seem like a lot of work to replicate the nutritional environment without fish waste and respiration. But I guess if you try hard enough...
naterealbig
pea brain
I do believe that in the absence of amino acids or food that the corals can consume directly, ammonia plays a part in coral health. I believe Reef Chili and Reef Roids have been proven to be consumed by SPS. In a fishless tank (I have them), I would definitely (do) supplement with both these foods, along with amino acids.
OP
OP
tvan
Active Member
I started using reef roids because of that paper. I have a pod explosion the day after I feed.
@Crashnt24 How long was the tank fishless?
@ScottB This is what I'm try'n to figure out. Does the waste, slime, or something else contribute something?
@naterealbig Thank-you for the information.
I tried it (I used snails). I made a mixture of ammonium chloride, trisodium phosphate, and urea, and I put it on a dosing pump. I used a vitamin and trace element supplement for aquariums(I later determined that it wasn't what I needed).
My experiment wasn't successful. I had little coral growth(I think it was mostly due to temporary events). I had poor algae growth and reproduction. I think algae growth should have been similar to aquariums that have fish. If I was going to try a fishless frag tank again I wouldn't use an all in one aquarium supplement, I would dose things individually. Some things that I would dose are vitamin B12 drops, thiamine, etc. I think that if an aquarium can grow algae well, it might be able to grow corals well.
My experiment wasn't successful. I had little coral growth(I think it was mostly due to temporary events). I had poor algae growth and reproduction. I think algae growth should have been similar to aquariums that have fish. If I was going to try a fishless frag tank again I wouldn't use an all in one aquarium supplement, I would dose things individually. Some things that I would dose are vitamin B12 drops, thiamine, etc. I think that if an aquarium can grow algae well, it might be able to grow corals well.
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