Flame angel died, need help on next step

[Steve1500]

Yesterday, my flame angel was hiding in the rocks and not eating. Other than that, she looked normal and had been acting normal prior to that. But in the month that she has been in DT, she never ate well. Prior to DT, the fish was in QT for 30 days where I treated her with copper (14 days), metro and 2 rounds of praziquantel. In the 75G DT, there are 7 fish (tang, cardinal, clowns, basslet, damsel) and all of them look fine.

Last night, when I got home, she was dead. Unfortunately, I did not do a freshwater dip to check for flukes. I am not sure if she died from flukes or velvet. The fish had many fluke symptoms and I only say velvet because she died so quickly but other than that she had no velvet symptoms.

Does this sound like flukes, velvet or something else?

Most importantly, what do I do with the fish in DT? Treat with praz (assuming flukes)? I have a mixed reef and can take out the corals with feather dusters.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Flippers4pups]

Angel's can be sensitive to higher levels of copper. What was the dosage of copper you used?

 

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

Generally copper is not a good option for angels. could have caused dammage to gills or internal organs.
no signs of velvet,flukes maybe. regarding the treatment. if you can take corals out for a duration of treatment then sure go for it and then use carbon to remove all med before placing corals back in.

 

[Steve1500]

Never thought of the copper effects. Used coppersafe (believe it was good) at 1.75 for two weeks. The fish never did eat well when I put it in DT.

 

[Flippers4pups]

Here's a study that was done on copper and flames:

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/10/breeder

Let's get some eyes in this one:

#reefsquad. Let's see what they say.

 

[Steve1500]

Here's a study that was done on copper and flames:

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/10/breeder

Let's get some eyes in this one:

#reefsquad. Let's see what they say.

Wow! Now that I think about it, the fish exhibited symptoms of a fish first introduced to copper. Low appetite and lethargic. The only thing that stumps me is that she ate well and acted normal after the copper in the last days of QT.

 

[Steve1500]

Here's a study that was done on copper and flames:

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/10/breeder

Let's get some eyes in this one:

#reefsquad. Let's see what they say.

Wow! Now that I think about it, the fish exhibited symptoms of a fish first introduced to copper. Low appetite and lethargic. The only thing that stumps me is that she ate well and acted normal after the copper in the last days of QT.

 

[Rgbpixels]

Sorry to hear. I had a flame angel in Qt for 30 days, no issues. When I put him in the DT, the next day he was covered in ich and velvet. Had 14 fish now down to 6. One last fish to get out of DT and then no fish for 76 days for me.

 

[4FordFamily]

I’ve quarantined 30 or so angels without any issue in copper. They are, however, quite sensitive to ammonia and lower oxygen conditions. I personally believe that to be the primary reasons angels have been documented to have additional sensitivity to copper. Once controlled for these two things they’ve done fantastic. I find wrasse to be exponentially more difficult in copper, but still doable with the copper hanna checker (ability to keep copper at low end of therapeutic range 1.5-1.75 for chelated copper.

 

[Abhishek]

Honestly , I have no experience with any Angels other than Lamarck and Bellus and they have been through copper much like any others ...

Coming to the existing fishes , what symptoms you see they exhibit ? We should focus our efforts in saving all the rest in your tank .
It's difficult to say if it died of flukes as velvet often shows all symptoms of flukes . But it can kill the fish ever so rapidly if the free swimmers invade the gills and cause asphyxiation.

If any fish is showing signs , will you be able to give it a freshwater dip to confirm flukes ?

If it were me and I can't say for sure , I would probably treat for velvet .
Freshwater dip , followed by acriflavine or formalin dip ( if severe) and then straight into CP .
Alongside I would maintain high level of oxygen with multiple wooden stones bubbler and also treat the tank with broad spectrum antibiotics - kanaplex , metroplex and API Furan 2 or if you have access to NFG .

Regards,
Abhishek

 

[HotRocks]

I agree with others above^^^

It's all about oxygen, and maintaining the proper copper level. Anytime you are medicating fish you HAVE create alot of O2 exchange. Powerhead heavily agitating the surface and an Airstone for some insurance. I have a regal angel, potters angel, and flame angel all in my DT that went through copper in QT.

I currently have a regal and flame in QT for a friend that are doing very well. Maintaining 1.75ppm copper power for 15 days now and heavy aireation, still eating well and very active in QT. I also spend a full 7 days ramping up to the 1.75ppm level (as long as there are no signs of velvet). I would also recommend a full 30 days in copper, unless you are transferring the fish to a 2nd completely sterile QT at the 14 day mark.

For ammonia, using cycled media and/or Dr Tims or Biospira to boost the nitrogen cycle is critical.

The reason I spend so long ramping up is because I typically have "sensitive" wrasse in QT as well. Currently I have Moyeri and Bluestar leopards.

 

[Steve1500]

The existing fish in DT look good. Big mistake of not testing for flukes w a fresh water test. Nitrates are about 80 but I don’t think this is the problem. I only used the API copper test kit w coppersafe and either of those could be the problem. Debating on treating w praz for flukes. Thoughts?

 

[HotRocks]

The existing fish in DT look good. Big mistake of not testing for flukes w a fresh water test. Nitrates are about 80 but I don’t think this is the problem. I only used the API copper test kit w coppersafe and either of those could be the problem. Debating on treating w praz for flukes. Thoughts?

Coppersafe and API combination has cost me tons of fish! It's far from accurate. Very hard to read test.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/c...instruments-high-range-copper-checker.368943/

 

[Lasse]

Hi guys

When are you going to stop all of these prophylactic treatments ? IMO it kills tons of fish. In Sweden - it is rather rare with this type of treatment (the rule is - If it is not broken - do not fix it) - It is very seldom these problems show up here - especially when the supply chain is short

Today most exporters function as main collectors from many smaller collectors/fishermen. They have rathe large facilities and an high turnover. Of these reasons - they have their own treating protocols - including low copper treatment and other treatments like Praziquantel. Many importers continue the prophylactic treatment during the time the fish are at the wholesaler - after this many LFS do the same. This mean that a fish showing up at an aquarist home can have more than a month with prophylactic treatment and you guy start with a new treatment period without knowing anything about the treatment history of your fish!

I can accept that you have a QT if you use a normal working aquaria for this (not total cleaning after each batch of fishes - just an extra working aquaria) - but please stop this protocols of prophylactic treatments. If any signs of diseases show up during the QT - treat - but do not use prophylactic metods.

Sorry to hear. I had a flame angel in Qt for 30 days, no issues. When I put him in the DT, the next day he was covered in ich and velvet.

Why this happen? My 2 cents is that the microorganism responsible for diseases was suppressed of low level prophylactic treatments in the QT - in the DT - no prophylactic treatment - the microorganism could reproduce again.

I´m know that I´m on the backstreets as normal - but - please try to understand what I´m saying and give it a thought

Sincerely Lasse

 

[4FordFamily]

Hi guys

When are you going to stop all of these prophylactic treatments ? IMO it kills tons of fish. In Sweden - it is rather rare with this type of treatment (the rule is - If it is not broken - do not fix it) - It is very seldom these problems show up here - especially when the supply chain is short

Today most exporters function as main collectors from many smaller collectors/fishermen. They have rathe large facilities and an high turnover. Of these reasons - they have their own treating protocols - including low copper treatment and other treatments like Praziquantel. Many importers continue the prophylactic treatment during the time the fish are at the wholesaler - after this many LFS do the same. This mean that a fish showing up at an aquarist home can have more than a month with prophylactic treatment and you guy start with a new treatment period without knowing anything about the treatment history of your fish!

I can accept that you have a QT if you use a normal working aquaria for this (not total cleaning after each batch of fishes - just an extra working aquaria) - but please stop this protocols of prophylactic treatments. If any signs of diseases show up during the QT - treat - but do not use prophylactic metods.



Why this happen? My 2 cents is that the microorganism responsible for diseases was suppressed of low level prophylactic treatments in the QT - in the DT - no prophylactic treatment - the microorganism could reproduce again.

I´m know that I´m on the backstreets as normal - but - please try to understand what I´m saying and give it a thought

Sincerely Lasse

Do you watch the fish disease forum? It’s unbelivable how much more common parasites are these days. I killed several multiples more fish prior to proper prophylactic treatment.

It’s almost a guarantee that the fish we receive have parasites due to the sheer numbers of fish moving through each of the large water systems they’re exposed to throughout the distribution system.

Low levels of copper do nothing in the way of ridding parasites, they just control them from taking over while in their hands. Add the fish to a new system devoid of low level copper and it quickly grabs them.

My fish are thriving and life is good. It is, however, a new learning curve. I cannot speak to Sweden but I can say that here in the states not prophylactically treating is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Lasse]

Low levels of copper do nothing in the way of ridding parasites, they just control them from taking over while in their hands. Add the fish to a new system devoid of low level copper and it quickly grabs them.

If this is the case - why do you use that in your QT - the parasites will be left on the fish (but not reproduce) and in your DT - you do not have any supressing Cu.

I´m coming back to Cu - it was back in the 80:ties I study fish health according to sublethal exposures of low level heavy metals and other contaminants. Meanwhile - a good search parameter is induction of MFO in fish.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Sashaka]

I have treated multiple angels, wrasses, and even puffer fish in Copper Power without issues. As others have said, it is important to monitor the copper levels daily, ramp up the copper slowly, and provide enough oxygen exchange for success during the treatment.

please stop this protocols of prophylactic treatments

Lasse, I respect your position and your ideals, and I am heartfully glad it works for you. I would love to follow the course of action you suggest. I did follow your methods when I first started in the hobby...butthen disaster hit, wiping out my whole tank. Unfortunately, the LFS near me all have visible ick or velvet in their tanks-all the time-and the fish I order online show signs of illness right in the bag. I truly feel, for me, prophylactic treatment is the only course of action left.

IMHO, there is no one way to be successful in this hobby. Unfortunately, if one loses fish due to prophylactic treatments, than that Aquarist develops the perception that prophylactic treatment is the greater evil. If after quarantining fish for a month without prophylactic treatment and a stressful situation arises such as a power outage or the introduction of a new fish to the tank and hidden illness rises its ugly head, then the aquarist comes to believe that prophylactic treatment is the answer to prevent fish deaths. I think the correct way to do things in this hobby is to research, become informed of all options, and then make decisions based on one's own unique and individual situations. There are no guarantees that the path one takes will bring success, but if one practices a method well enough and for long enough, that aquarist is sure to become more proficient and successful at it. An now with the high level Hanna copper checker, treatment is more precise and controllable for many aquarists.

 

[Abhishek]

@Lasse - excellant point but as @4FordFamily suggested - in US , almost all fishes we receive will have some kind of parasites that need to be treated . May be the reefing scene is different in Europe where you do get disease and parasite free fishes passed down to hobbyists but in the states - we are not there yet .
I hope @Humblefish is listening to our prayers !!!

Regards,
Abhishek

 

[Sashaka]

2 rounds of praziquantel

I noticed you treated with praziquantel. You could have had a resistant fluke, but because you treated prophylactically, I would think a combination of low oxygen levels and high nitrates caused undue stress to the fish, weakening it's immune system. In my experience, flame angels don't do well in high nitrates. You said the fish never ate well in quarantine during treatment. It does not look emaciated in the picture, but it doesn't take long for a fish become weak from insufficient food intake. Unfortunately, the API copper test kit is unreliable, so you may never know the cause of death.

I am sorry for your loss.

 

[4FordFamily]

If this is the case - why do you use that in your QT - the parasites will be left on the fish (but not reproduce) and in your DT - you do not have any supressing Cu.

I´m coming back to Cu - it was back in the 80:ties I study fish health according to sublethal exposures of low level heavy metals and other contaminants. Meanwhile - a good search parameter is induction of MFO in fish.

Sincerely Lasse

If kept in copper 14 days then transferred to a sterile tank then due to the life cycle of ich and velvet you’ve effectively rid the fish of it, if administered properly.

This can be done in 30 days (what I’ve always done) if you don’t move the fish to a sterile tank. I like to keep many expert level fish that are particularly sensitive to parasites, and with that comes a different level of husbandry.